Results 1 - 4 of 4
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Rom 7:9 What's it mean? | Bible general Archive 1 | let it rain | 51559 | ||
Rom 7:9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; I'm just a little curious on this one. It seems to challenge the doctrine of "original sin" as I normally hear it taught, which, as generally accepted doctrines go, I think is a little weak anyway. To me, it's not a big big deal, (which is cool) but it makes me wonder if Paul, when he said "all have sinned" didn't intend for us to include the very young, or even perhaps the mentally incompetent. Don't you think you have to understand what "sin" is before you can place faith in a savior? What does it mean to you, Berean, (or anyone else of course)that you were once alive, but then at some later time sin became alive in you and you died? My thinking is that by the time I could feel guilty for doing something wrong or hurtful, I was a sinner. Thanks, Rob |
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2 | Rom 7:9 What's it mean? | Bible general Archive 1 | Reformer Joe | 51564 | ||
Hello, Rob. Actually, Romans 7:9 affirms the doctrine of original sin rather than denies it. He previously made this statement: "For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death." --Romans 7:5 He writes that our sinful passions were AROUSED by the Law. The actual presence of the Law caused sin to find an outlet. The Westminster Catechism teaches that sin is "any want [lack] of conformity unto or transgression of the law of God." In other words, sin only makes sense in the context of God's commandments. What Paul is saying here is that when those in the flesh (non-Christians) hear God's commandments, their natural inclination is to want to break it or not comply with it. Therefore, our sinful nature rebels against the law of God to produce actual sins. The verse you asked about is in response to a hypothetical objection that could be raised, since Paul has just said that the law causes more sins: 'What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET." But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.' --Romans 7:7-8 So is the Law sin if it produces sin in us? Paul answers emphatically that the law is not sin. But, we know sin (i.e. become intimately familiar with it) therough the Law. Hearing the commandment not to covet makes the sinful person say "Aha! Coveting is against God's moral code; therefore, I shall covet!" Notice that Paul says that sin "takes the opportunity"; our indwelling sin sees an outlet through which the sinful person can rebel against a holy God. The result? Coveting of every kind! How rebellious and hateful toward God we were before in His grace He condescended to rescuing us! We then get to Romans 7:9, which describes in more detail the effect of God's holy Law on sin. The commandment came, making sin alive (stirring it up in us) and as a result, death (Romans 6:23). He goes on in the following verse to say that the commandment, through keeping of which we would live, produces death when our sinful nature becomes aware of it. The law is not sin; but it is a catalyst for our sinful natures to do acts of unrighteousness. God does this to make us aware of our sinfulness, so that sin will be made "utterly sinful." This is why proclaiming God's law is so important in evangelism; if the person does not see his utter hopelessness in sin, he is not going to realize his need for a Savior. Your post does raise an interesting question, however. Do we have to actually hear the commandments of God in order to be sinners? I think the answer is "no," based on Romans 1:18 ff. which talks about the rebellion of man against the general revelation of God (the "light of creation"), and Romans 2:12-16 which talks about the moral sense God has given all human beings. While there may be an age of accountability for those who are not able to apprehend the world around them yet or recognize their "conscience," the doctrine of original sin is a very well-developed one in Scripture. --Joe! |
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3 | Rom 7:9 What's it mean? | Bible general Archive 1 | let it rain | 51834 | ||
alive apart from the Law As I understand the "Doctrine" of original sin, we are conceived in sin. Not that a conceptus has done anything wrong, but is bathed in spiritual depravity. I can make any verse make sense if I'm given enough time. I've seen the verses used to build the original sin doctrine. I think they can all be explained a different way. This verse (Rom 7:9)is the one that convinces me that they OUGHT to be interpreted differently. "sin only makes sense in the context of God's commandments." (Joe) Rom 7:9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; Rom 6:14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace. Rom 6:11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus "I was once alive apart from the Law" can only mean that whether or not the law existed elsewhere, it was not alive in Paul. Could he have been a sinner in need of a savior if he was "alive?" You are not under the law now, but salvation is a past event in your life. Are you not also then, "alive apart from the law?" Can't it be said that one who is "alive to God in Christ Jesus," is also "alive apart from the Law?" A timeline might look like this: ...(a)....(b)....(c)....(d)... where: (a) is physical birth (b) is where the law came in (c) is salvation (d) is physical death it seems to me that for however long (a) lasts, we are not condmned until (b) happens. (b) is where the unsaved or doomed spend their earthly lives and includes phrases such as "dead to the spirit" and "alive to sin" and "enslaved to sin." (c) may have a variety of understandings in differing ages or interpretations, but is mostly marked by accepting the reality of sin in our lives and the need for the risen christ. (d) is our entrance to eternal bliss or eternal hell. I think (a) is what Paul was talking about. He was not saved, but only because he hadn't had the time to get lost yet! Original sin IS a well developed doctrine, but not in scripture. |
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4 | Rom 7:9 What's it mean? | Bible general Archive 1 | Reformer Joe | 51856 | ||
You didn't address much of what I wrote at all... You wrote: 'As I understand the "Doctrine" of original sin, we are conceived in sin. Not that a conceptus has done anything wrong, but is bathed in spiritual depravity.' I would argue that that is not the best way of looking at it. It is not the human act of reproduction that makes a baby sinful in nature. Our sinful nature is part of the curse resulting from the Fall: "For as through the one man's disobedience the many were MADE sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." --Romans 5:19-21 There is no getting around the clear teaching of Paul that our sinful tendency existed prior to the giving of the commandments (we were made sinners long before we were born or conceived). The Law just gave something for our sinful natures to clearly work against, a blueprint for what we should do so that we, being dead in sins, will do the opposite or do the Law outwardly to glorify ourselves rather than God. The result? Transgressions increased! You wrote: '"I was once alive apart from the Law" can only mean that whether or not the law existed elsewhere, it was not alive in Paul.' Well, it COULD mean something else. We know that Paul, being a Jew, was BORN under the Law (while I as a Gentile was not), so from his circumcision he was made a participant in the Sinaitic Covenant (the Law). So he didn't have much of a long life apart from the Law. What this could mean is that Paul, not having committed any ACTUAL sins, could have been considered alive "in practice." Whether or not that is the case, we see that the sinful passions which caused Paul to sin against the Law and "die" were already present within him. The Law did not cause them to come into existence, but merely aroused them and "brought them to life." No external entity introduced sinful desires into a previously "neutral" or "good" Paul. They were there all along, and the Law brought them out to play. One thing that can be clearly seen: the Law may have come from the outside, but sin originated from within. And that is what the doctrine of original sin holds: not that we were born having committed actual sins, but that we were born with a disposition to do nothing that pleases God (Romans 8:6-9). --Joe! |
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