Results 1 - 6 of 6
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Why is killing enimies in the OT okay? | Bible general Archive 1 | Mandy33319 | 49923 | ||
And Greetings, Steve: You ask: What was my "favorite" story, the name of the "leader"? In Judges 11: 30 through 39 "Meanwhile Jephthah had vowed to the Lord that if God would help Israel conquer the Ammonites, then when he returned home in peace, the first person coming out of his house to meet him would be sacrificed as a burnt offering to the Lord! So Jephthah led his army against the Ammonites, and the Lord gave him the victory. He destroyed the Ammonites with a terrible slaughter all the way from Aroer to Minnith, including twenty cities, and as far away as Vineyard Meadow. ....when Jephthah returned home, his daughter--his only child--ran out to meet him, playing on a tambourine and dancing for joy. When he saw her he tore his clothes in anguish. Long story short, she was given a couple of months reprieve to play with her friend in the surrounding hills, but when she returned, Jephthah sacrificed her as a "burnt offering" to God, just as he had vowed to do. ------------------------------- Then you ask: who defines "wanton"? "You?" Well, that was an adjective that came to mind. "Heinous" might be another. Consider this episode (one of a multitude): Numbers 31: verses 14 through 41 Paraphrasing--Moses greets his returning army officers and battalion leaders, and is very angry with them. They had let "all" the women live. Moses instructs the officers to kill all the boys and the women who have had sexual intercourse, but save the "little girls" and keep them for "themselves". To me, that's fairly "wanton" and yes, "heinous", also. In many of the Books and verses that I listed, is the same sort of admoniton or direction/order by God, to "slaughter" "completely" all inhabitants of a city or country, including the babies. Over and over and over. --------------------------------- As for "borderline insanity", maybe it's not even border line? Especially if one tries to justify this kind of carnage, he has "jumped" over the line.... Mandy |
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2 | Why is killing enimies in the OT okay? | Bible general Archive 1 | stjones | 49933 | ||
Hi, Mandy; Notice that God did not demand the vow from Jephthah. It was his own idea. His motives (pride, payback) are clear from the preceeding verses. Did God give Israel the victory because of Jephthah's vow? Of course not. He gave Israel the victory because he had promised to defend Israel, as Jephthah surely knew. Jephthah's actions were all his own and don't reflect on God at all. Casual reading of the OT often leads to the erroneous assumption everything the Israelites do - good or bad - is somehow commanded or at least condoned by God. But God continually reveals his patience by putting up with the shortcomings of his people. I am grateful for his forebearance. There is no place in the Bible that God demands child sacrifice - a detestable practice of the followers of Moloch. The idea could not have come from God nor can responsibility for it be placed at his feet. That the Bible faithfully records Jephthah's stupidity in easily misunderstood circumstances is testament to its truthfulness. You have expressed your opinion forcefully. While you are certainly entitled to it, it remains your opinion, without authority or standard. Your comments are loaded with value judgments ("wanton", "heinous", etc.) with no trace of values. What are your values? Where do they come from? How do you know they're right? If you haven't a clear answer, don't worry about it. 5000 years of human philosophy have failed to come up with a satisfactory answer. As for the implication that I may have jumped over the line to pure insanity, I don't mind at all. Your suggestion is just testimony to the truth of the passages I cited earlier. Peace and grace, Steve aka Indiana Jones |
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3 | Why is killing enimies in the OT okay? | Bible general Archive 1 | Mandy33319 | 49941 | ||
Dear Steve: You wrote: "Notice that God did not demand the vow from Jephthah. It was his own idea..." But one might ask why or how he came up with that idea? It seemed natural. And then one might ask, why did God allow the event to happen? Abraham's poised knife was stayed in a previous sacrifice episode. It is an interesting scenario. You wrote: while I am "entitled" to my opinion, my opinion is without "standard or value." And that my comments are "loaded" with value judgments with no trace of "values". I trust that you realize that I could say the same thing--that your opinion about my opinions, are loaded with value judgments, etc. But I would say okay, I think, since how else can we view anything? Let's try this one: Numbers 16: 33-36 Paraphrasing: a man was caught gathering wood on the Sabbath day. He was arrested and taken before Moses and other judges. They put him in jail until they could find out what the Lord wanted to do with him. The Lord told Moses, "This man must die--all people shall stone him to death outside the camp. So, he was taken outside the camp and killed as the Lord had commanded." So, what kind of a "value" judgment is appropriate? None? ---------------------------------- You ask: what are my values? where do they come from? How do you know they're right? My values come from my faith in a loving and just God. My values come from my family who taught me (among other things) that the word "wonder" is a noun AND a verb. I was taught to be in WONDER (be in awe) of the mysterious and profound Creator of it all. But also, not to be afraid to wonder (the verb). To wonder is to ask. To ask is to attempt to understand. I value that very highly. -------------------- You wrote: my suggestion about "jumping" over the line is just testimony to the truth of the passages I cited earlier. Of course, that's your opinion. No problem. But until and unless, one is willing to sift through all the passage examples that I have previously listed, to see what they may or may not indicate, then what's the point? Based upon your values, do you have a position on the execution of the wood gatherer? WONDER and wonder :) Mandy |
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4 | Why is killing enimies in the OT okay? | Bible general Archive 1 | stjones | 49949 | ||
Hi, Mandy; "But one might ask why or how he came up with that idea? It seemed natural." - People come up with all kinds of bad ideas, all on their own; God is not responsible for them. The Crusaders had some really bad ideas of their own and people who don't know any better have been blaming God for them ever since. "And then one might ask, why did God allow the event to happen?" - The same question could be asked about every bad thing that has ever happened. A good question, but too much to answer here. With respect to Jephthah, he suffered a terrible loss as the result of his prideful vow. Did others (his daughter) suffer more? In earthly terms, yes; but no more than the victims of countless drunk drivers who walk away from the carnage they cause. People die as the result of other people's sins every day. It's sad part of living in a fallen world. "Abraham's poised knife was stayed in a previous sacrifice episode. It is an interesting scenario." - The knife was poised by God's command and stayed by God's command, both to serve God's purposes. I don't think this episode is related to Jephthah's self-serving behavior. With regard to opinions, I try very hard to base my opinions on an external, divine standard - the Bible. My comments are based on that standard. Might I get it wrong and go off in the wrong direction sometimes? Of course I do, but study and meditation based on the Bible bring me a few compass points closer to the right direction - much closer than if I just made it up as I went. Do I approve of God's command in Numbers 15:32-36? Not really; but then I often think I have a better idea. Ultimately, however, I trust the loving and just God portrayed in the Bible. Job: "Though he slay me, yet I will trust in him". Peter: "Where would we go? You alone have the words of life". Where else should I turn? To a god of my own or someone else's making? Where does knowledge of the loving and just God in whom you have faith come from? Does it come from your own reason? your emotions? other people? Is he a god of your own making? I assure you that I have read and studied the OT and struggled with the violence. At the end of the day, I had to ask myself if I trusted God, if I was willing to give up my tendency to judge God and just let God judge the world. I have since come to understand that these stories are there because God is honest and wants them there. It's easy to love a cuddly baby lying in a manger. The challenge is to see a loving God in the midst of the carnage. Finally, it becomes a choice - do I let my opinions about these events alter my understanding of the God portrayed in the whole Bible? or do I allow my knowledge of God to alter my opinions about these events? I have chosen the latter. It'll be a sad day when I approach either God or his creation without wonder. And wondering. Peace and grace, Steve aka Indiana Jones |
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5 | Why is killing enimies in the OT okay? | Bible general Archive 1 | Mandy33319 | 49960 | ||
Ok, Steve: Perhaps you've said it best: "The challenge is to see a loving God in the midst of the carnage. Finally, it becomes a choice..." A choice? Yes, there we are in agreement. I have gone over all those Books and verses that I've listed, several times--seeking. As I have approached other Christians about them, I find that very few Christians are really aware of the volume, really aware of the magnitude. Search and ask as I may, I can find no "value" reasons for the consistent orders to "kill everything in sight", including millions and millions of babies, children and women. As you suggest, though, it is a choice. My choice is to keep my jury out, hopeful that I, too, someday may see what you state you see "in the midst of all the carnage". PS: last response on this topic, and last message to post on the forum. Thank you for your insights. Mandy |
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6 | Why is killing enimies in the OT okay? | Bible general Archive 1 | wwv | 49970 | ||
I am kind of disappointed you don’t care to continue this forum. Although I find myself siding with the bible the more I study, you bring up some very real points. Well worth discussion. Discussion though, not mean spirited comments. You brought up some excellent issues that are in much need of investigation and study. I find there is a ton of information packed in one little book called the bible . I believe the ‘enormousness’, if you will, of Gods’ word is a little much to have it just written down and then take at face value. That’s why I truly believe we NEED the Holy Spirit to guide us through it. Try reading any book in Hebrew , not knowing Hebrew. Mandy, I totally agree with you, though, It seems appalling for a truly loving god to kill his own creation ( I now realize the purpose of the slaughter in Canaan, but that was after my ‘first glance’ of the Word). Maybe you can tell by the fruits of the killers and the fruits of the ones being killed. I certainly don’t have the expertise that Steve does, but I am the better for the TWO of you on this forum. I know we’re not the only ones to have these awkward questions, so there is a need for skeptical discussions to get the truth out. It’s not always easy to understand radical ideas. Good things come to those who diligently seek the truth (with the right heart), so don’t give up. I pray that anyone with a hard heart can open up enough for the Holy Spirit to shed the light, needed to experience the love and peace I have received. Believe it or not it’s real. In any case, I thank you for sharing your thoughts. As for me , I’m glad I am not the only one to have wonderment concerning this, so I can further my study. God bless you and keep searching. (knock and the doors shall be opened) William |
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