Results 1 - 6 of 6
|
|
|||||
Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | How did sin originate | Bible general Archive 1 | CDBJ | 44529 | ||
Hello Congregationalist, Reformer Joe is a very active member of the forum who sounds just like you. I am sure that you two will meet at some point in a discussion. Joe is very interesting to talk with and he is very well versed on Scripture; he knows Reform Theology like the back of his hand, but then again he has been whacked a few times on the back of that same hand by some on the forum, you'll like Joe. I ask you a question and this is how you answered. Does the Bible teach predestination or not? Can you please tell me? Nice ploy, but you answer my logical question first; mine is easy since all I want is your opinion. There is no verse to back it up either way. CDBJ |
||||||
2 | How did sin originate | Bible general Archive 1 | congregationalist | 45064 | ||
Hello CDBJ, you wrote to me: “I ask you a question and this is how you answered. Does the Bible teach predestination or not? Can you please tell me? Nice ploy, but you answer my logical question first; mine is easy since all I want is your opinion. There is no verse to back it up either way.” Well, if I was avoiding an answer then yes, it could’ve been a ploy but I wasn’t. I’ll answer your question below but let me firstly address my intention by not giving you a straight answer right away – if you answered ‘yes’, i.e. yes you do believe in predestination then you would simply contradict yourself since your own question presupposes silently that you do not believe in predestination (you wrote “…since the people that one might witness to are predestined already, why waste your time; and why bother to pray for someone if God has already made his decisions!..." implies that praying only makes sense if the doctrine of predestination is false and since presumably you pray for others it follows you do not believe in predestination) and by contradicting yourself you would clearly see your false position. On the other hand, if you answered “no”, i.e. no you do not believe in predestination I would have surely asked you to exegete 20 or 30 passages ;-) (well no, 2 or 3) where predestination is clearly taught. By doing all this one would hope some scripture would be read, examined and hopefully some conclusions made. Another reason why I didn’t answer your question straight away is because I think the question is absolutely irrelevant to this discussion, namely, even if it is shown that praying doesn’t make any sense if predestination is true does not make the doctrine false (your argument is implicitly this – if predestination is true, then praying doesn’t make sense, now praying does make sense therefore predestination is false. The argument is fallacious on a few counts and I don’t think I have time to go into it now). Now to your question: “If it isn't going to make any difference anyway, since the people that one might witness to are predestined already, why waste your time; and why bother to pray for someone if God has already made his decisions!” The obvious answer is of course we are commanded to pray: “..And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints; And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel..” (Eph 6:17-19) Here Paul commands us to pray with supplications for all saints and for Paul himself so that he might be able to preach the gospel, therefore we ought to pray for saved as well as for unsaved people. It is rather simple, regardless of wether or not God predestines everything there is to pass He commands us in His word to pray for saved and unsaved alike, although the contents of such prayers are different. Now let’s just compare the two views as far as the supplicational prayer goes. Both a Calvinist and an Arminian pray to God for their unsaved neighbour that he might come to the saving knowledge of Christ. A Calvinist believes that his neighbour’s future is predetermined by God and since he doesn’t know what this future is he, following the Devine command and also knowing that prayers are pleasing to God, turns to God with his supplications about his neighbour. Whether or not his neighbour will be saved is irrelevant as far as the content of the supplication goes, a Calvinist exercises his duty and leaves the matter in God’s hands. Arminian, on the other hand, apparently believes that his prayers are going to influence God’s decision since he believes that the future is not predetermined by God already. But one wants to ask what kind of God is this whose decisions are influenced by prayers of sinners? Did not Isaiah say: “I am God, and there is none like Me, Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, “My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure””? The end from the beginning, according to Isaiah 46:10 has been declared by God and His council shall stand, it shall not be changed by prayers or by anything else. Likewise, if a neighbour and not God is a decisive force in the matter of saving faith, in other words if it is a neighbour who decides to believe or not to believe the gospel and it is not God who foreordains such an act, then shouldn’t an Arminian pray to his neighbour and not God, why pray to God if it is a neighbour who desides his future and not God, if God does not foreordain neighbour’s choice to believe or not to believe the gospel? Would that be a satisfactory answer? |
||||||
3 | How did sin originate | Bible general Archive 1 | CDBJ | 45142 | ||
Thank you for your response, as I can see you put a lot of thought into it. I will be honest with you with my answer and you might think that I am at times a little fickle. I have been a believer for over 36 years now and I study more then the average bear. I am active in teaching Bible studies and I like to dig into the Koine Greek for a fuller understanding of the Word. I don't think that there is anything more rewarding then leading someone to the Lord for salvation. As I said, I will be honest when I tell you that there are times when I think that Calvin is right and then there are times when I lean toward Arminianism; now if that isn't being fickle I don't know what is! I am a very, very firm believer in eternal security and this is one point that I can't be budged from, no mater how people try to twist scripture around, grace is grace. When it come to predestination, of course the Bible teaches it, but to grasp the full understanding of what it is, at times I am not able to grasp it, that or I might have a paradigm paralysis or just a plain mental block. The verse that comes to mind when I think of predestination is found in Romans 9:21 (KJV) Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? It think this way a while then my mind drifts toward that fact that God made us with a free will to chose, and that’s what pleases him, when we make a decision to love him not because we are programmed that way but because we want to, on our own. 1 John 4:10 (KJV) Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Can one ever enjoy something that is done for them when the person that did it is forced to do it: do you see where I am coming from? It must be nice to be firmly entrenched in one camp or the other but at this point in time I am having trouble with it as I am torn between both. Yours in Christ, sitting in no-man's land, CDBJ P.S. If you want to get those ugly black blobs out of your post, change your default font to ARIAL 10; I use 14 so I can see it easer but the key is ARIAL. |
||||||
4 | How did sin originate | Bible general Archive 1 | congregationalist | 45224 | ||
Hi CDBJ I’m thankful for your thoughtful reply, you are easy to converse with which is a rarity in online discussions. You wrote: [snip] I am a very, very firm believer in eternal security and this is one point that I can't be budged from, no mater how people try to twist scripture around, grace is grace. I’m glad you believe that but don’t you think perseverance of the saints is dependant on predestination being true? You wrote: [snip] Can one ever enjoy something that is done for them when the person that did it is forced to do it: do you see where I am coming from? Maybe. I think your problem with grasping the doctrine lies in the fact that you bring some foreign notion to it, namely that predestination implies coercion. It doesn’t. The fact, the Biblical fact that is, that God foreordains everything that comes to pass does not imply he forces His will on the choices men make. Calvin warned us that we should handle this particular doctrine with care and shouldn’t take it too far, to inquire into God’s mind why He does what He does Calvin thought was sinful. We should simply deal with the scriptural truth as it was laid down for us in the Holy Writ. Does it teach predestination? Yes it does (you admit that as well). Does it teach that God coerces people into doing what He foreordained? No it doesn’t. Does it follow, logically, from the premises that if God foreordains everything then man’s choice is coerced? No it doesn’t. So then, this is where I think we should stop our inquiry and this is where Reformed Christianity stops together with apostle Paul “O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?”. You wrote: P.S. If you want to get those ugly black blobs out of your post, change your default font to ARIAL 10; I use 14 so I can see it easer but the key is ARIAL Well actually my settings have no influence on how your browser displays stuff, I wish it had actually for then my job, which is web development, would be a lot easier then it is now ;-) Any problems you might be having with how text is displayed in your browser is either the developers’ fault (but they will never admit it) or your browser’s settings have to be changed. Cheers |
||||||
5 | How did sin originate | Bible general Archive 1 | CDBJ | 45229 | ||
Greetings, I guess that I will just have to prod along until the Lord convinces this bone head of mine what all the real facts are, providing I last long enough; and if I don't last he can change my thinking in a real hurry when I take that last breath of earth smog. 2 Cor. 5:8 (NIV) We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. CDBJ |
||||||
6 | How did sin originate | Bible general Archive 1 | congregationalist | 45232 | ||
Amen! | ||||||