Results 1 - 8 of 8
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | How did sin originate | Bible general Archive 1 | Reformer Joe | 44758 | ||
New Creature: Calvinists do not disagree with what you say about Adam and Eve, since they were not born "fallen." The Bible is very clear that we are unable to please God on our own -- to OBEY Him -- having become a sinful race of human beings (Romans 8:7). We are completely incapable of honoring God. Those who are not in Christ are doing nothing -- NOTHING -- which brings glory to God, and are therefore storing up wrath for themselves (Romans 2:5; Ephesians 2:3). Surely you are not saying that they CAN choose to obey God when the Bible clearly says that they are incapable of doing so as unregenerate beings! By the way, God's fore-ordaining of events does not mean that he CAUSES everything Himself. What is does mean is that He either causes it Himself or ALLOWS it to happen. Both are aspects of His decree. He did not make Adam sin, but it obviously did not take Him by surprise that He did. Christ was never "plan B" after Adam messed everything up. Christ was "plan A" from eternity past. Therefore, Adam's sin must be part of God's eternal decree, simply because it happened. You wrote: "I still hold that your ideas on this would mean that God is the author of sin." And repeating this statement does not equal EXPLAINING it. That was Congregationalist's question. --Joe! |
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2 | How did sin originate | Bible general Archive 1 | New Creature | 44794 | ||
Joe Thanks for your reply. I really don't find anything in what you said that I can say I absolutely disagree with. I just want to say that everything has a first cause, sin included. It is my belief that God is not the first cause of sin. Rather God created man with the foreknowledge that he would exercise his God given freedom of choice, and chose to disobey. God knew before He created man, that this is the way it would be. It didn't catch Him off-guard or by surprise. Nevertheless, God knowing what would come about still chose to create His beings. So I agree with you when you say He allows it to happen. To grasp this we need to accept the different aspects of God's will, His perfect will, verses His permissive will. I also agree that the unregenerate in their deadened state cannot please God. I believe, where we might part ways is that I also believe that God can work in the unbelievers heart wooing him, and drawing him, but that God's grace can be resisted. (see Acts 7:51). Here is a few reasons why I believe God's grace can be resisted: (1) If God is all-powerful, then He could save all persons. (2) If God is all-loving, then He would save all persons. If an all-powerful God can save all, but He will not save all, then God is not all-loving. For a God who is all-loving would save all, if He could save all. But the fault lies not with God, but rather with man who when ONCE God enlightens that individual as He does "every man that comes into the world (John 1:9), that man resists God's grace and does not receive the free gift of salvation. When that happens then God,in His justice will not allow that individual into heaven, but he will be cast into hell. Man is held accountable for his decisions. Those who resist God's grace are "without excuse" Rom. 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: |
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3 | How did sin originate | Bible general Archive 1 | Reformer Joe | 44821 | ||
You wrote: "(1) If God is all-powerful, then He could save all persons." Yes, COULD. "(2) If God is all-loving, then He would save all persons." What do you mean by "all-loving"? What Scripture are you using to support that God is "all-loving"? If God is "all-loving" in the way that you seem to be defining it, why didn't he give EVERYONE a chance to build an ark? Why didn't he choose the whole world instead of on particular people group out of all the nations in the world to be the recipients of His covenant and His favor? Why did God tell the Israelites to completely blot out everyone who lived in Canaan rather than to evangelize them? Why did God raise up nations to judge rebellious Israel, only for those nations to be utterly destroyed? Why does God allow for heathens to be born, live, and die without EVER hearing the gospel or even the name of Jesus Christ? In short, where do you get the idea that "God loves everyone equally"? --Joe! |
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4 | How did sin originate | Bible general Archive 1 | New Creature | 44873 | ||
What do you mean by "all-loving"? What Scripture are you using to support that God is "all-loving"? Are you saying God is not all loving? That God shows partiality? John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (Who does that exclude?) If God is "all-loving" in the way that you seem to be defining it, why didn't he give EVERYONE a chance to build an ark? My Answer: Gen. 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also [is] flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. God was longsuffering and patient with the ungodly in the days of Noah. Noah was a preacher of righteousness. The peoples hearts became hardened. But God gave them 120 years to repent under the preaching of Noah to repent, and they did not. God is not at fault here for the failure of men. God never coerces repentance. God never twists an individuals arm to repent, He convicts them and persuades them, but the act of repentance is something the sinner must do. 2 Pet. 3:9 THE LORD IS not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is LONGSUFFERING to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. Why didn't he choose the whole world instead of on particular people group out of all the nations in the world to be the recipients of His covenant and His favor? My Answer: The recipients of God's favor are those who by grace through faith receive the gift of salvation which is freely offered. The OT saints received and embraced Christ through faith the same as NT saints. God's way of salvation has not changed over the years. Abraham was saved by faith, and we too are saved by exercising faith in Christ. 1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world. In the animal sacrifices the OT saints looked forward to the day that the spotless, sinless lamb of God would be the perfect sacrifice for their sins. Today we look back to the same Lamb of God, who died to pay the penalty for the sins of all who ever lived. But only those who by faith embrace and receive Christ and His finished work at Calvary are the recipients of eternal life. Why did God tell the Israelites to completely blot out everyone who lived in Canaan rather than to evangelize them? Answer: The various reasons for this is probably because God in His foreknowledge, and omniscience knew that the heathen people would not be receptive to the gospel. And to allow them to live among God's people who were to possess the land would mean that over time the pagan people would turn Israel away from the Lord. Why did God raise up nations to judge rebellious Israel, only for those nations to be utterly destroyed? My Answer: God raised up nations, kingdoms, and kings as means of discipline against as you yourself state "rebellious Israel" or disobedient Israel, which ever wording you choose. It is because God loves His people and a loving Father disciplines His children with love. Scripture says: Heb 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: 6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. Why does God allow for heathens to be born, live, and die without EVER hearing the gospel or even the name of Jesus Christ? Answer: Since the fall in the garden, everyone born since, is born heathen, including you and I. We were not born saved. As to to the second part of this question I don't agree with that statement. (look at the following scripture) Rom. 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Rom. 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Rom. 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. God can be know through observing His creation. But all will be without excuse on judgement day. They won't be able to say: "God you never reveal the reality of your existence to me. They will have no excuse. In short, where do you get the idea that "God loves everyone equally"? My Answer: does God show partiality? Can you disprove, with scripture anything I've sated in my last 2 replys? |
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5 | How did sin originate | Bible general Archive 1 | Reformer Joe | 44902 | ||
You wrote: "Are you saying God is not all loving? That God shows partiality?" Of course that it is what I am saying. God shows partiality all through Scripture. God chose Abraham over every other person alive at the time. God chose Jacob and not Esau. God chose Moses (to the exclusion of everyone else) to lead His chosen people (all other nations being excluded) to the land which He had chosen for them (and they were to obliterate all of those people currently occupying the land of His chosen people). He chose judges. He chose Samuel. He chose David. He chose his prophets. He chose Mary. God the Son chose His disciples. God chose Paul. God most definitely shows partiality and bestows favor unequally on His creation. In other words, God doesn't have to limit himself to the principles of democracy, sine he is the King. It is only wrong to say that He chose all of those people because they deserved to be chosen. You wrote: "God was longsuffering and patient with the ungodly in the days of Noah. Noah was a preacher of righteousness. The peoples hearts became hardened. But God gave them 120 years to repent under the preaching of Noah to repent, and they did not. God is not at fault here for the failure of men." Where do you see that God was being patient toward the world in the days of Noah? It is very clear from Genesis 3 that He purposed to destroy every single human being besides the eight he saved. If you are referring to God's patience in 1 Peter 3:20, that patience in unleashing His wrath was for the sake of Noah, who was building the ark, NOT for those He was planning on destroying. Go read the verse again. As for 1 Peter 3:9, the Calvinist understanding of that verse within the context of the entire epistle has been posted here ad nauseam. Do a search for it. "Why didn't he choose the whole world instead of on particular people group out of all the nations in the world to be the recipients of His covenant and His favor? My Answer: The recipients of God's favor are those who by grace through faith receive the gift of salvation which is freely offered. The OT saints received and embraced Christ through faith the same as NT saints. God's way of salvation has not changed over the years. Abraham was saved by faith, and we too are saved by exercising faith in Christ." I don't disagree with how OT saints were saved, but that doesn't address my point at all. Salvation before Pentecost was limited almost exclusively to the nation of Israel. It was Israel who received the Law of Moses, it was Israel who was God's covenant people, it was the system of sacrifices and ceremonies given to the Israelites which prefigured the Messiah. Nowhere do we see in the Old Testament where the Israelites were commanded to spread the "good news of Yahweh" to convert the pagan nations. The oracles of God were given to Israel alone (Romans 3:1-2), and Jesus Himself said that salvation is from the Jews (John 4:22). It is quite obvious that God established His testimony with Jacob (Psalm 78:5) and that Israel was God's chosen people above all others until the ministry of the apostles began. You wrote: "Why did God tell the Israelites to completely blot out everyone who lived in Canaan rather than to evangelize them? Answer: The various reasons for this is probably because God in His foreknowledge, and omniscience knew that the heathen people would not be receptive to the gospel." Where is your Scripture to support this? You are begging the question by saying that your view is supported by your view. --Joe! |
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6 | How did sin originate | Bible general Archive 1 | New Creature | 44928 | ||
What I'm saying is my view of scripture, however perfect or imperfect remains my view. I do not claim to have a perfect answer suitable for everyone. I merely share my views with you and others seriously considering and weighing comments and replys from others like yourself. At this moment we don't agree on all points we discuss, but Thank God we can freely with a gentle spirit encourage each other in our walk with Him. Finally, concerning whether God is impartial, I still don't believe He is. God is not a respecter of people. I believe there is more to God's choosing certain people that what we currently know. think, or realize. So I don't think I will have any answer that can satisfy anyone. But thank you for helping me try to think through this. I would like to hear more of what you say on this topic as well |
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7 | How did sin originate | Bible general Archive 1 | Reformer Joe | 45007 | ||
New Creature: You wrote: "But thank you for helping me try to think through this. I would like to hear more of what you say on this topic as well." Are you sure about that? ;) The only thing I would like to add is that when Peter said that God shows no impartiality in Acts 10:34, he was speaking directly in reference to the Cornelius situation. Cornelius was a Gentile who became a Christian, and that was the "train wreck" to his previous understanding of what it meant to be a Christian. So, when Peter says this, he means that God is going to be calling people to Himself not only from the Jews, but also from the Gentiles. That is the impartiality of God spoken of here. --Joe! |
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8 | How did sin originate | Bible general Archive 1 | New Creature | 45112 | ||
Thanks Joe. Hopefully we will be able to further discuss this as well as other topics in the near future. At the same time I am sure we will not agree on everything. But at least we each get to post our thoughts on the different topics with a gentle spirit. Thanks again Joe | ||||||