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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Does Islam fit here? | 2 John 1:7 | DocTrinsograce | 129195 | ||
Brother Ed, thank you for your comments. I'll quote a few historians. (By the way, I don't hold any modern Roman Catholic responsible for the acts of people in history. We weren't there. Had we been there, we probably would have done no better. I haven't been placed in a position to do such things, but that is strictly by the grace of God. Furthermore, I am not making any condemnation of Romanism. I am simply responding to a question of the accuracy of a previous post.) Robert Kentch author of "French Wars of Religion" gives estimates as high as 78,000 Huguenots killed The Catholic historian Vergerius, who states that during the Pontificate of Pope Paul IV (1555-1559) "the Inquisition alone, by tortures, starvation, or the fire, murdered more than 150,000 Protestants." "This was the century of the last religious wars in Christendom, the Thirty Years, War in Germany, fomented by the Jesuits, reducing the people to cannibalism, and the population of Bohemia from 4,000,000 to 780,000, and of Germany from 20,000,000 to 7,000,000, and making Southern Germany almost a desert..." --Cushing B. Hassell, "History of the Church of God" "Need I speak to you of the ... Irish rebellion, of the inhuman butchery of about 15 millions of Indians in South America, Mexico and Cuba... In short, it is calculated by authentic historians, that Rome has shed the blood of sixty-eight millions of the human race in order to establish her claims to religious dominion..." --S. S. Schmucker, "Glorious Reformation" "There perished under pope Julian 200,000 Christians: and by the French massacre, on a moderate calculation, in 3 months, 100,000. Of the Waldenses there perished 150,000; of the Albigenses, 150,000. There perished by the Jesuits in 30 years only 900,000. The Duke of Alva destroyed by the common hangman alone, 36,000 persons; the amount murdered by him is set down by Grotius at 100,000. There perished by the fire, and tortures of the Inquisition in Spain, Italy, and France 150,000. In the Irish massacres there perished 150,000 Protestants" --W. C. Browley I could add more quotes, but suffice it to say that one of us is wrong. If I'm wrong, then a lot of historians are wrong. Please site any sources you have to support your position of Rome's benign treatment of Protestantism. (By the way, have you ever read Foxes book of martyrs?) I'll respond to your other comments in a subsequent post. |
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2 | Does Islam fit here? | 2 John 1:7 | EdB | 129216 | ||
Doc you said, “Ecumenism that teaches the worship of unity even at the cost of truth. That would put us back under the authority of priests and popes, with no apology or consideration of the hundreds of thousands who were killed and tortured for trying to put Bibles in the hands of common people.” All the battles you mention had nothing to do with getting the Bible into anyone’s hand. Also the numbers are greatly inflated. During this period an army was considered a great success if it could muster more than a couple thousand men. Almost every scholar of History refutes the highly inflated numbers claimed killed in the inquisitions. I heard a recent discussion on this issue and the man addressing the symposium (I can't recall his name) I'm told is highly respected expert. Told of his research and discovery of the record of names sent back to Rome of victims of the inquisitions the number while I can’t recall the exact number was under a thousand. The numbers supposedly killed in the Inquisition are just the like the Salem witch hunts numbers. People (fiction writers and Hollywood) have this number at totally unrealistic levels, I have heard that hundreds died in Salem, however documentation proves the numbers to be in twenties and possibly lower. I never once said Rome’s treatment of Protestants was benign. That sir is exactly what you accused me of, putting words into your mouth. I explained your charge of me doing this was based on me making an assumption and I apologized for that. I can see nothing anywhere in my post to you which can even remotely lead you to this assumption in what I said. Yes I have read Fox’s book of Martyr’s many times. I don’t think that is the issue here. The issue is the Catholic church while reluctant to just let anyone translate the Bible was not actively involved in preventing or discouraging lay people from Bible study. While Rome had many faults and certainly needed reformation this false charge should not be laid its feet. Your also right the Catholic Church does teach in areas of the Bible that a clear understanding can not be reached that the church’s explanation should be accepted. I see this as being about the same as any denomination doctrinal statement, Statement of beliefs or the issuing position papers refuting something that may be effecting the church today. Personally I find most bickering between denominations abhorrent to Christianity and believe that perhaps there should be one deciding body to provide one clear position rather than having 3000 and trying to ignore the hypocrisy of it all. Let us stop this before it goes any further down hill. If you or anyone else wants to believe the Catholic church oppresses it’s people to keep them from reading or studying the Bible. I say go for it! Burn the Pope! For those that agree with me that the Reformation started out as religious reform and ended as political power struggles I say great. Are you going to convince me? Absolutely not! Am I going to convince you? Most probably not! That said I would say that should you or anyone make a post that I consider not being true I will offer a post to refute your position. I hope you do the same for me. EdB |
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3 | Does Islam fit here? | 2 John 1:7 | DocTrinsograce | 129217 | ||
I can't seem to find any unbiased historical accounts that support what you are saying. Even the contemporary historical accounts of Rome don't jibe. These adjustments represent a consensus of opinion that is not easily moved. That's especially true when such stolid immobility is so unwaveringly affirmed. Although I can't prevent a bit of irony in my tone as I say this, perhaps the shifting of a decimal point will, by the same proportion, make some these things more tolerable to our modern sensibilities. In any case, I retract my statements of facts and figures. As I said elsewhere, we'll let history justify itself. |
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4 | Does Islam fit here? | 2 John 1:7 | EdB | 129227 | ||
I guess that is one way to dismiss the facts that refute ones claim call them biased. :-) The main thing to remember is the world’s population of the time and the fact inflated reports often followed battles. It was good propaganda. About 4 years ago Rome apologized for its part in inquisition. Since then many Vatican, Protestant, and secular researchers have explored this issue and have found that most of the figures were inflated by as much as a 1000 fold. In one report from the town of Cordoba, I believe, it was reported that more people were tried and found guilty and executed than the total population of the city of the time. In fact the total number examined in Spain was found to be 125,000 with less than 1 percent ever leading to execution. I would point you to some Catholic documents but I’m sure you would dismiss them as biased. So I won’t bother however you should know the findings of these documents have be scrutinized and found accurate by impartial researchers. I state this to set the record straight and in NO WAY is this meant to excuse or justify even one death let alone this number, however it is a long way from 100’s of thousands to 1250. I personally feel even one death in the name of Christianity is one death too many and I pray such infighting and bickering never results in this again. I believe it is a shame on the church and I pray it would be a lesson from which we all learn. EdB |
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5 | Does Islam fit here? | 2 John 1:7 | DocTrinsograce | 129236 | ||
It would appear that using this method puts us in good company around here. :-) I had read about the apology to the Jews. I had also read about a similar apology to all of Islam that came out a few months later. Since then I've been waiting in vain for more. Since I had offered some documents from the same source for your perusal, it would only be fair for me to look at these other documents that contain the improved figures. I'll even take your word on their impartial researcher seal of approval. Brother Ed, as far as the world is concerned, there is no difference in the colors we paint ourselves. Things done in the name of Christianity -- for good or ill -- are stigmas that we all carry as believers. Unfortunately, the face-lifts, adjustments, and euphemisms do not mitigate the distinctives which are based on things that make a world of difference for a man's eternal destiny. |
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6 | Does Islam fit here? | 2 John 1:7 | EdB | 129293 | ||
Doc Okay check http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5218373 http://www.summerlands.com/crossroads/remembrance/_remembrance/00000081.htm The death toll from the Spanish Inquisition was about 2500, total over 350 years. There are two good books on the Inquisitions, one by a secularist named Peters, and one by a Jewish historian named Kamens. Excerpt from slashdot website. In 1972, we learned that that was exactly what someone *had* done. Two historians -- Norman Cohn and Richard Kieckhefer -- independently discovered that _Histoire de l'Inquisition en France_ was a forgery. They learned that Lamothe-Langon was a noted forger, writing fake autobiographies of numerous 18th century notables. He claimed that his book was based on unpublished documents given to him by a famous French librarian, but Cohn found a letter in which this librarian stated that this was not true -- there were no unpublished sources. And under close examination, errors appeared in Lamothe-Langon's supposedly "ancient" documents. For instance, the inquisitor he said presided over the trials wasn't an inquisitor at the time the panics supposedly occurred. For these and dozens of other reasons, historians today are confident that these 14th century trials never occurred. There were no mass trials before the 15th century, and there never was a craze where 400 women died in one day. B4. It's not right to compare American and European Witch hunts. America's persecution was just a pale shadow of what happened in Europe. American Witch hunting was as intense as European Witch hunting. In fact, when you compensate for its low population, New England hunted Witches as fiercely as Scotland, one of the worst countries in the Burning Times. Many older texts say that American Witch hunting was vastly different than the persecutions in Europe. Why? Because back before trial verdicts were studied, historians assumed that tens of thousands of Witches died in most European countries. (See the death toll pages for more information on why this assumption is wrong.) America's trial records were well-preserved and well-studied. Historians have long known that 37 American Witches died. And it seemed obvious that 37 American executions was nothing like, say, 70,000 deaths in Scotland. Once historians studied trial verdicts, they learned that our early estimates of the European death toll were far, far too high. Most European countries killed hundreds of Witches, not tens of thousands. America had a tiny population and it wasn't colonized in the first two centuries of the Burning Times. When you compensate for these factors, you find that America hunted Witches about as intensely as the moderately fierce portions of Europe did. In a relatively short period of time, America killed more Witches than several European countries, including Iceland, Portugal, Ireland, and Russia. Excerpts from http://www.summerlands.com/crossroads/remembrance/_remembrance/00000081.htm Once again I don’t mention this to condone or excuse Rome or anyone else for that matter. I simply was trying to set the record straight. Let me repeat one death is one death to many especially when it is done under the guise of Christianity. EdB |
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