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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Where do I go from here? | 2 Pet 3:4 | Treadway | 51830 | ||
Hello Tim: (continuing...) You say: 2) Don't make a literal statement out of an assumption about the meaning of a word! My Reply: A word can have a literal meaning: my dictionary says soon means: before long; without undue time lapse; promptly. If I said to someone that I was going to die soon, would that mean to them in 10 years? 5? 20? 2 years? Or, would reasonable people, in general, have the same idea of soon? Would those reasonable people have a much narrower concept than those spans? And recall, it is not just a one time word. It permeates the NT, from The Good News is Coming Soon!, to REV: I am coming soon!” You say: . However, He never said that! (..that he was coming back in the 1st century…) My reply: This has been your strongest point, without question. But then, you must be willing to address what he did say. And then you must be willing to ask what he meant. You must be willing to ask if anything is implied. If Jesus said to his disciples in Matthew 16: 27-28, “For I, the Son of Mankind, shall come with my angels in the glory of my Father and judge each person according to his deeds. AND SOME OF YOU STANDING RIGHT HERE NOW WILL CERTAINLY LIVE TO SEE ME COMING IN MY KINGDOM.” Incidentally, this is even stronger than Mark 9. Even though Jesus does not say “in your lifetime”, what else could he mean? Again, a layman is asking: what does Jesus mean when he tells his disciples he is coming back and some of them will live to see it? Is it unreasonable that a layman can construe that the context is what it is? Is it not prudent to read this over and over, and still see the same thing? You say: It is dangerous to build an entire arguement on the truth or falsity of the Bible based upon nothing more than an assumption about how long a time is a reasonable time for 'soon'! ;-) My reply: Not at all. Again, this could be the “heart of the matter.” “Falsity” would be a worse case scenario. But, after going through each one, after sequentially listing them, and paying close attention to context, in order to establish the minds’ intents, some doubts may arise. I suppose my main premise would be that no stone should be unturned.. How else to know? Sometimes I waver, but mostly I feel I will be back in the FOLD. And can’t explain that feeling. But until then, I think I owe it to myself to make sure I’m right—then go ahead—even if I’m wrong. J ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You say: God Bless you my friend! Hopefully, we will be able to interact 'soon' on some other issues as well! My reply: Well, not so sure about that. Just what does soon mean? Might mean tomorrow for you, but 2 years from now for me…….Treadway |
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2 | Where do I go from here? | 2 Pet 3:4 | Treadway | 51910 | ||
2nd Coming? Yes, no, or maybe? continuing from the previous post... Why are Paul, Peter, John and the author of Revelations so convinced that the time of the 2nd Coming is at hand? Obviously there had to be a seed, or seeds, planted for this belief (or feeling) to grow to the proportions that it seemed to have grown. And isolating the sowing is not too difficult a task. It begins with Jesus: The Kingdom of heaven (The Good News) is near. And it stays with Jesus. He tells his disciples, point-blank, that some of them will live to see his return. When he commissions them, sending them out into the countryside, he reiterates the message: “…announce to them that the Kingdom of Heaven is near.” He tells the disciples to expect trouble, but tells them that if they endure to the end they shall be saved. He tells them that when persecuted, to flee to the next city, and the next. Then He tells them that before they reach all of the cities, before there are no other places to go, He will return. In context, he must be speaking of His return in the disciples' lifetime. In the Sermon on the Mount of Olives, Jesus echoes his previous statements concerning the End. Note the very personal interest of the disciples in wanting to know about the “signs”. Jesus is specific when he addresses the disciples with the pronoun, “you”. “You (the disciples) will be tortured…" “…many of you (the disciples) will fall back…” “…when you (the disciples) see the horrible thing standing in the temple…” “…when you (the disciples) see all these things, you (the disciples) can know that my return is near, even at the doors…” Many Christians who yearn for the return of Jesus will always point to the passage that says to be prepared because no one knows the day and hour, only God knows. This is the main tool that is used to somehow by-pass all the declarations of “soon”. And it may be a good tool. In my view, however, it is weak, extraordinarily weak when placed against the people in the NT who believe that Jesus will be returning within their own lifetime. In fact, a strong case exists, when taken in the context of the whole, the “…no one knows…” fits in quite nicely. Would the disciples want to know the exact day? You bet. Would they want the exact hour? Of course, they would. Is it logical that Jesus can give them a ballpark figure as to when they might expect his return? Sure. But that logic breaks down considerably when a day or hour is asked for. In summation: will Jesus return, as promised? Yes? Maybe? No? In the final analysis, it is up to the individual jury that resides in each of us. As for me, personally, I hope that no one accuses me of an “agenda”. I have none, other than wanting to sift through the bits and pieces, weigh them, measure them, sniff them, gather their DNA. As I previously posted, I was once a Baptist before I began to read the Bible. Although that may sound rather odd, I was one of those Christians who had never really read the Bible but just accepted what others told me about it. I have heard estimates that as much as 70 percent of Christians may fit into this category—but I don’t know. I know I did. Then someone challenged me to read it, really read it from stem to stern; to come to it with an opened mind. Pretend, he said, that you are an alien, and you are opening this Holy Book of these Christian Creatures for the first time…and see what happens. Currently, I am still reading….Treadway :) always good thoughts. |
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3 | Where do I go from here? | 2 Pet 3:4 | Morant61 | 51925 | ||
Greetings Treadway! You made the following statement in your last post: "He tells his disciples, point-blank, that some of them will live to see his return." As we have already discussed, I am aware of passage which refer to His kingdom coming, but where exactly did Jesus say point blank to His disciples, "Some of you will live to see Me return"? I'm not trying to harp on you my friend, but there is a big difference between a direct statement and a statement which you interpret to mean something. ;-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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4 | Where do I go from here? | 2 Pet 3:4 | Treadway | 51931 | ||
Hello Tim: You write: but where exactly did Jesus say point blank to His disciples, "Some of you will live to see Me return"? there is a big difference between a direct statement and a statement which you interpret to mean something. ;-) -------------------------------------------- Let's see what it says: KJV: Matthew 16: 27-28 "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." The Book chose to say the above in this manner: Instead of having Jesus referring to himself in the 3rd person, the 1st person is used: "For I, the Son of Mankind, shall come with my angels in the flory of my Father and judge each person according to his deeds. And some of you standing right here now will certainly live to see me coming in my kingdom." Your question again: where does it say that some will live to see Jesus's return? Well, I just read the two passages again, and again. Guess I don't understand your interpretative problem? Treadway |
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5 | Where do I go from here? | 2 Pet 3:4 | Morant61 | 51936 | ||
Greetings Treadway! I must not be explaining myself very well! :-) My 'interpretative problem' is the assumption that Mt. 16:28 refers to the second physical coming of Christ to earth. The verse doesn't say anything about the physical return of Christ, so one must assume that here. Let's compare though the places where the phrase is used in a physical sense. Mt. 24:30 - "‘‘At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory." Mark 13:26 - "‘‘At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory." Luke 21:27 - "At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory." In these three verses, the physical return of Christ is mentioned. However, none of these verses says that the disciples would see it occur. Those who will see it are referred to only in a generic third person plural. So, my point is simply that Jesus does not specifically say that His disciples will see Him return. Scripture only says that they will see His kingdom coming in power. To what does that refer? That is debatable! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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6 | Where do I go from here? | 2 Pet 3:4 | Treadway | 51938 | ||
Greetings Tim: You say: So, my point is simply that Jesus does not specifically say that His disciples will see Him return. Scripture only says that they will see His kingdom coming in power. To what does that refer? That is debatable! ------------------------------- Everything is debatable. I just presented a position that makes sense to me, based upon my individual reading and understanding ablility. Personally I see no wriggle room. And, as I said, each person is the jury. I do know this: a LOT would be at stake if this were viewed as I have described. A lot of motive for keeping it ambiguous. But, at least, you are willing to recognize that it is "debatable". That is admirable.... Treadway :) |
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