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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Where do I go from here? | 2 Pet 3:4 | Morant61 | 51816 | ||
Greetings Treadway! Thanks for the response my friend! Allow me to discuss a couple of philosophical points if I may! 1) Skeptics! My comment about skeptics was based on quite a bit of experience. I have no problem with someone questioning or asking hard questions of the Bible. However, skeptics do have an agenda - to remain skeptics! :-) Therefore, they often, as Jesus put it of the Pharisees, 'strain at gnats and swallow camels'. One example which I remember concerns an Old Testament passage where the circumference is given and the value of 'Pie' was not accurate to enough decimal points in the skeptics mind. Therefore, the argument was made that the Bible was in error! This train of thought about the second coming strikes me as the same kind of strained argument on the part of some to disprove the Bible. 2) 'Soon'! We have touched on this issue several times, but from whose perspective should we view 'soon'? Differing contexts and differing perspectives produce differing definitions and/or expectations. A child has very little patience and 'soon' had better be in the next couple of seconds! :-) A college student realizes that graduating 'soon' maybe in the next couple of years. In geological terms, a small ravine may 'soon' be a giant canyon. But, what about God's perspective as a timeless being. Surely, we cannot mandate that 'soon' for Him means within my lifetime. He ordained the first coming of Christ before the world was even created. Yet, it was not until 2,000 years ago that Christ came. If one does not hold to a young earth theory, that means that God waited possibly hundreds of millions of years before Christ came the first time. If one holds to a young earth theory, God still waited thousands of years before Christ came the first time. My whole point in this discussion has simply been two-fold: 1) Don't read too much in to a word which is very subjective! 2) Don't make a literal statement out of an assumption about the meaning of a word! If Christ had literally said that He was going to return in the 1st century and didn't, I would be right there with you protesting that the Bible was inaccurate. However, He never said that! It is dangerous to build an entire arguement on the truth or falsity of the Bible based upon nothing more than an assumption about how long a time is a reasonable time for 'soon'! ;-) Well, I've got to go! I'm expecting a video call from my mother! God Bless you my friend! Hopefully, we will be able to interact 'soon' on some other issues as well! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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2 | Where do I go from here? | 2 Pet 3:4 | Treadway | 51830 | ||
Hello Tim: (continuing...) You say: 2) Don't make a literal statement out of an assumption about the meaning of a word! My Reply: A word can have a literal meaning: my dictionary says soon means: before long; without undue time lapse; promptly. If I said to someone that I was going to die soon, would that mean to them in 10 years? 5? 20? 2 years? Or, would reasonable people, in general, have the same idea of soon? Would those reasonable people have a much narrower concept than those spans? And recall, it is not just a one time word. It permeates the NT, from The Good News is Coming Soon!, to REV: I am coming soon!” You say: . However, He never said that! (..that he was coming back in the 1st century…) My reply: This has been your strongest point, without question. But then, you must be willing to address what he did say. And then you must be willing to ask what he meant. You must be willing to ask if anything is implied. If Jesus said to his disciples in Matthew 16: 27-28, “For I, the Son of Mankind, shall come with my angels in the glory of my Father and judge each person according to his deeds. AND SOME OF YOU STANDING RIGHT HERE NOW WILL CERTAINLY LIVE TO SEE ME COMING IN MY KINGDOM.” Incidentally, this is even stronger than Mark 9. Even though Jesus does not say “in your lifetime”, what else could he mean? Again, a layman is asking: what does Jesus mean when he tells his disciples he is coming back and some of them will live to see it? Is it unreasonable that a layman can construe that the context is what it is? Is it not prudent to read this over and over, and still see the same thing? You say: It is dangerous to build an entire arguement on the truth or falsity of the Bible based upon nothing more than an assumption about how long a time is a reasonable time for 'soon'! ;-) My reply: Not at all. Again, this could be the “heart of the matter.” “Falsity” would be a worse case scenario. But, after going through each one, after sequentially listing them, and paying close attention to context, in order to establish the minds’ intents, some doubts may arise. I suppose my main premise would be that no stone should be unturned.. How else to know? Sometimes I waver, but mostly I feel I will be back in the FOLD. And can’t explain that feeling. But until then, I think I owe it to myself to make sure I’m right—then go ahead—even if I’m wrong. J ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You say: God Bless you my friend! Hopefully, we will be able to interact 'soon' on some other issues as well! My reply: Well, not so sure about that. Just what does soon mean? Might mean tomorrow for you, but 2 years from now for me…….Treadway |
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3 | Where do I go from here? | 2 Pet 3:4 | Treadway | 51907 | ||
2nd Coming? Yes, no, or maybe? As some on this forum have noted, I have a healthy (or unhealthy, depending upon their views) concern that Jesus will not be coming back, as promised. I’ve tried to outline many verses, from those that provide “doubt”, to those, which seem to me, provide bona fide evidence. Instead of rehashing the same verses, this will be a final summation, if you will, with only indirect mention of where the support criteria may be found. (But if anyone should want to know “specifically” the verse (s), just ask) To some, this pursuit has been deemed the importance of a gnat’s existence in the universe, and that well may be true. But on the other hand, it well may not be true, and from a tiny acorn, a mighty oak does grow. From the very beginning of the NT to its very end, “Soon” is chronicled. “The Good News is Coming Soon!” A sense of urgency permeates throughout the NT. “Expectation” thrives. “Warnings” abound. Peter, Paul, and John are caught up in the clouds of “soon.” Repeatedly, they tell their followers (mainly Jewish Christians) that the end of the world is near. Paul tells the Corinthians, “…the world in its present form will soon be gone.” Christ (God), if it may be recalled, speaks through Paul. Peter echoes the theme when he declares, “…the end of the world is coming soon.” Peter is explicit, too, when he tells the Jewish Christians living in Asia Minor, that this end will occur during their lifetime. John is no less adamant, no less specific: “ …this makes us all the more certain that the end of the world is near.” No wonder, then, when Revelations is written, this urgent message is at the fore. When writing the letter to the seven churches, Revelation’s author pulls few punches as he stresses that, “…the future activities soon to occur in the life of Jesus Christ…” and, “…the time is near when these things will all come true.” He begins his letter with this attention getting “soon” and he ends the message with: “I am coming soon!” “…this will happen soon…” “…for the time of fulfillment is near…” “See, I am coming soon…” and “Yes, I am coming soon!” Consistent with the notion of “soon,” is his thinly veiled puzzle of the BEAST. Since the Greek language accorded a numerical value to names, the triple sixes is representative of the Roman Emperor, Nero. This ruler was, indeed, considered to be a Beast to the Jews, a ruler who persecuted them unmercifully. In the Hebrew version, the number is listed as six-one-six, and when translated, also represents Nero. That would put the concerns of Revelation squarely with his own present day. (to be continued...) Treadway |
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4 | Where do I go from here? | 2 Pet 3:4 | Hank | 51920 | ||
Treadway, one brief observation -- that's all the time I have at my discretion right now -- on the question you raise about our Lord's Second Coming and about the word 'soon.' As to His return, He said He would return. This constitutes a promise from the Son of God. Therefore, not to believe Him, not to take Him at His word, really does play havoc with our own personal trust in Jesus Christ as our Savior and Lord, doesn't it? It militates against our personal relationship with our Creator and our Redeemer. And as for 'soon,' what it may mean to us in our hurry-up society in which we measure time in nano-seconds and what it may mean to the eternal, sovereign and transcendent God are likely not the same things. But this we know: that 'soon' each of us is going to cross the unavoidable bar that separates temporal life on earth from eternity. It will be too late then to speculate about our Lord's return; thus, to my mind, while it is important to watch and wait in expectation of His return, it is of more vital importance to place our total faith and total trust in Him here and now, while we yet can. Treadway, I pray to God that His Spirit will guide and comfort you in your quest for His truth; that you will come to know more about Him; that you will indeed come to know Him and trust Him for all your days. There is a hymn with the words, 'leaning on Jesus, leaning on the everlasting arms.' There can be no nobler calling in all of heaven and earth than 'just in simple faith to trust Him, just to take Him at His word.' --Hank | ||||||
5 | Where do I go from here? | 2 Pet 3:4 | Treadway | 51949 | ||
Hello Hank: Just saw your post. And thanks again for the kind words and even kinder guidance. Personally, I've always liked the "...seek and ye shall find..." admonition. Another one, I heard or read somewhere is: "My heart cannot accept what my mind cannot believe." So, this search is quite ultimate. I don't know where it will wind up. In the middle right now, the doldrums, in limbo. I've haven't given up on pure faith, but I want to be sure there isn't anything that I've missed. In a way, faith is a kind of gamble and I guess I'm trying to "hedge" the bet. ...Treadway.... :) |
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6 | Where do I go from here? | 2 Pet 3:4 | Hank | 51956 | ||
Treadway, re faith being a gamble: As for me, I'd rather have faith in the Lord and lose the 'gamble' than have no faith in Him and lose THAT gamble! But I've really never thought of my Christian faith as a gamble. I'd rather go with the apostle Paul, who was more spiritually discerned than I am, and was brighter than I will ever be. Said Paul: "I KNOW whom I have believed and am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day." Those who truly know Christ, who are regenerated by the Spirit, have a hope that is both sure and steadfast. Treadway, you need not answer publicly if you'd rather not -- I pose the question for your personal consideration -- Do you truly know the Lord? --Hank | ||||||
7 | Where do I go from here? | 2 Pet 3:4 | Treadway | 51973 | ||
Hello Hank: You asked if I "truly know the Lord?" ------------------------- At this particular stage of my life, I don't have the foggiest notion of how to answer. "In limbo" hasn't provided the luxury of decision or commitment. In legalistic terms, my jury is out, mulling over the arguments. A verdict could come, eventually, but then it could also be a "hung" jury, and that would probably mean a retrial. Once, when I did reside on the side of faith, I had no worries or doubts. I was completely confident in my belief, in my destiny. Unlike what I see a lot of on this forum, the discussions concerning "baptize or not", "hair-splitting salvation theories", all the "dueling verses", I had no such thoughts or concerns. I was going to Heaven, no doubt about it. But as I said, once the Bible reading began, it has been a whole new ball game. I'm not sure of the inning, maybe top of the 3rd, so there's a lot of game left. The cold water in the face was this: after reading a good deal of the Bible, I began to realize that my God had been, for all intents and purposes, one of my imagination. My God did not fit the Bible God. But through all this, I have come to know others in the same sinking boat, that the God of their worship is seldom aligned with the Bible. It makes you take a step back. Is that good or bad? Does it matter? Can it be adjusted? Is that where the concept of a "personal" God comes from? So, it's all been eye-opening. I knew next to nothing. Didn't even know about Dec. 25th, Easter, how Christianity actually came into being, what it consists of. It's a whole different world. :) always good thoughts Treadway ---------------------------- PS: as for the "..nothing to lose.." idea, I think that's is the Pascal doctrine, right? You know, when JEOPARDY has biblical questions, I've been doing quite well.... :) |
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