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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Where do I go from here? | 2 Pet 3:4 | Treadway | 51616 | ||
Where do I go from here? Born a Baptist, raised a Baptist, I dutifully went to church every Sunday, zippered Bible in tow, no questions, no worries. At home, the family Bible rested always on the living room coffee table, seldom read, never studied. Then an acquaintance asked me if I had ever read the 19th writer, Robert Ingersoll, his works on religion. I had not. He suggested I do so. I did. And I cannot describe how shocked and angry I felt. But in the midst of all the anger I read these words: Most Christians have not read their own Bibles. He had me there. I had not ‘really’ read much of the Bible and just knew generally the standard fare of the Sunday school teaching. So, now I have read Ingersoll AND the Bible. Since then, I have visited studybibleforum to see the thinking of others, and while here, learned about preterist. This was after I listed several verses in a post that seemed pristinely clear that “soon” and “near” was the common understanding of ALL in the NT as they applied to the 2nd Coming. Except for two responses, neither of which directly addressed the context of the verses, there was silence. After looking up preterist, I discovered that their view of the 2nd Coming ideas were similar to what I had discovered in my own independent Bible reading. But then, as I learned more about their views, I came to understand that, for their particular reasons, they were not willing to take the logic of it all to its inevitable conclusions: a) the 2nd Coming was expected in the 1st Century AD b) the 2nd Coming did not happen c) the disciples were mistaken d) Jesus was mistaken e) if Jesus was mistaken, then He is not God f) there will be no 2nd Coming, no Rapture g) the Book of Revelations is, indeed, the ravings of a madman, just as Ingersoll and Thomas Jefferson declared h) and the accepted notion of God is in serious jeopardy. So, I must bid adieu. Thanks for your tolerance from a great group of people. Treadway |
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2 | Where do I go from here? | 2 Pet 3:4 | HAMmonite | 51617 | ||
Hello treadway, My name's Harold but you can call me HAM. I just read your question where do I go from here? I myself have just recently joined the forum, so I wasn't able to see all the questioned verses you had previously posted. I'm personally saddened that your bible study and a book have brought you to these conclusions. Of course, you will believe what you will.I pray you don't give up and keep searching and praying for answers. Seek and you will find. It's not just a saying it a promise. As far believing the second Advent is a fraud or mistaken belief well, this is adressed in 2Pet chapter 3.Study this chapter, it does boil down to one this i want to tell you. If Christ hasn't return it's not because he won't it's because "he is patient toward you, not wanting any to perish but for all to come to repentance." (vs 9)Where do you go when you've come to the realization that your church hasn't been teaching you the truth? Seek out the counselor, the Holy spirit, seek out the answers, the Word, seek out the relationship, with God (Jesus). If you find any assurance from my words let me know if you don't then ask me your difficult biblical questions, I'd try my best to answer. Your freindly nieghborhood , HAM |
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3 | Where do I go from here? | 2 Pet 3:4 | Treadway | 51648 | ||
Hello Ham: Might as well make this my last post, time to move on. I read what you suggested: 2 Peter 3. And here's my interpretation: Peter is clearly entreating his followers to have patience concerning the return of Jesus. Everything he says backs that up. The area that some may feel (including you, I assume) that would extend this entreaty to the present time is the following: 9 "....He is not willing that any perish, and he is giving more time for sinners to repent...." The notion is sinners whose numbers are finite, that is, reflective of the people in that same generation who are not saved yet. This logic is simple to follow. If it does not just mean the time of Peter's generation, then it wouldn't make sense. If it meant all the historical time of 2000 years, a vast cornucopia of new sinners would be loosed upon the world--millions and millions. Peter clearly means that Jesus is concerned about the current crop, he is waiting for them to hear and accept the GOOD NEWS, not the millions of unborn sinners. Think carefully about this. But then, really all that is required is to check out the surrounding context. I won't take the time to list all the references from Jesus, Paul, Revelations concerning "soon", "near". But they are listed on another post and the context seems axiomatic, to me. Crystal clear that the 2nd Coming was meant to be in the First Century AD. Some Peter quotations: 1 Peter 1: 12 "They (the prophets) were told that these things would not occur during their lifetime, but long years later, during yours." Peter is addressing this to the Jewish Christians. 1 Peter 4:7 "The end of the world is coming soon." Again, addressing the Jewish Christians. John the Apostle 1 John 1: 18 "...this world's last hour has come....You heard about the Antichrist who is coming--the one who is against Christ--and already many such persons have appeared. This makes us all the more certain that the end of the world is near." The Apostle Paul: 1 Thessff 4: 15 "I can tell you this directly form the Lord: that we who are still living when the Lord returns will not rise ahead of those who are in their graves..." There are many, many more examples in MarK, Luke and Matthew (see the other post). Does not Jesus tell the disciples that some of them would still be alive when he returned? ---------------------------------- In conclusion, if read in context, it is inescapable that the 2nd Coming is intended for Peter's generation. I understand that it is not what people want to hear, not want they want to believe, and I was certainly one of them. I had the adamancy of "Paul" concerning the Rapture and 2nd Coming. But that was before I began to read the NT, before I began to jot down these quotations and measure them against the actual context, not my own desired context. --------------------------- Anyway, thanks for your kind words. They're always welcome. And I post no more because this is not the place for this kind of questioning...Treadway |
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4 | Where do I go from here? | 2 Pet 3:4 | HAMmonite | 51654 | ||
Hey treadway, I suppose you must have taken alot of time thinking this over.I'm curious about how much of your seeking was pray-filled. Don't get me wrong I respect your arguement, but the 2 Pet 3 is about addressing convincing arguements. I will agree that early Christians were waiting and believing that the end was near, here, or soon to come. The only time I recall jesus saying anyone was going to remain alive until his return was in John 21:20-22 and the writer of John explains that when this book was written, false rumors where spreading, saying that this disciple would not die (vs 23). I would prefer addressing other examples like you said in context (and on an individual basis). As far as the end actually being in their era, Christ is quite clear about no one knowing the day or hour except for the Father (matt24). This is an important context to remember when studying the other verses you mentioned. The patient endurance that the Apostles proclaimed was important for them because they where strangers in this world, some grew weary and needed reminder and encouragement. Today decieving arguements create doubt and lack of belief in the minds of many. We need to remind and encourage each other also. God has offered salvation to the world but few may accept it. Many times throughout history people have made the mistake of assigning a day or time for the end (ie. Millerites). If no one knows "the day" that includes the apostles in their own time. Still they were preparing as if it were today. Today is our day to prepare because the end has not yet come, but "salvation is nearer now than when we first believed" (rom 13:11). Finally your most logical arguement is that the end would never come because multitudes would continue to multiply and prolong the end. First you recognize that God has not desired the death of any, even the wicked.There is a seperation of sin and sinner, Christ reached out to the person but never accepted the sin. If you look at the signs Christ lays out in Matt 24 you will recognize that the world is for a lack of better words getting worse. The world will persecute believers. While believers testify of the Good news they are being murdered. Now Jesus does teach that the way is narrow that leads to life eternal and the road to Damnation is wide (matt7:14). Sadly both for us and even more for us not everyone will be saved, not because they didn't have a chance (matt 24:14). The world may come to the point where they have rejected totally the love of God, the testimony of jesus and His followers. Therefore commiting the impardonable sin. Why impardonable because they constantly grow in wickedness and ignore God. I tend to believe God is fair and just and He already knows (not us) who is saved and who is not. I also lean on Him giving us a chance to live out our lives and giving us the freedom to perish in our sin or die to sin and gain life through Him. Now i don't think i can truly give a scientific answer to show how the end can come with the world forever growing. Treadway is it possible that God is limited to our ability to procreate? I don't think scripture adresses that. Now that I think about it we are upto like 6 billion people and eventually it's going to get cramp. There are many different reasons that could bring about demise: famine, plague, war, or natural disaster. well I don't want to type on and on about all this. If you'd like to continue talking some of these biblical issues we could always Email on another. I know there are some very interesting points you might want to study on www.amazingfacts.com Oh and by the way I do believe in the second Coming of Christ, I am an Adventist. Your hopefully not too long winded friend, HAM |
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