Results 1 - 9 of 9
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Is the consuming fire in Heb. hell fire? | Heb 10:26 | BadDog | 63353 | ||
Is this "consuming fire" one and the same as the fire of hell or the lake of fire? IMO, no. This is not referring to eternal damnation. I'd be interested in what others think, and why. | ||||||
2 | Is the consuming fire in Heb. hell fire? | Heb 10:26 | Reformer Joe | 63473 | ||
I do believe that it is referring to what awaits those who have broken covenant with God and shown themselves to not be His people. The situation that the writer of Hebrews was addressing in the entire epistle was the temptation for professing Jewish believers to return to the Law. After chapters of showing both the true role of the Law and the superiority of Jesus to Moses, the author begins in 10:18 to encourage them to hold fast to the confession of faith in Christ, and to encourage the other members of the congregation to do the same. All of them have received the knowledge of the truth by being members of the Christian community. To depart from that and return to the sacrifices is foolish, for apart from Christ there remains no sacrifice for sins, only judgment. To reject Christ is to reject the only intercessor and Great High Priest there is, and what remains is yourself taking upon God's holy and eternal and just wrath. This is a very strong passage supporting the doctrine of the Preservation (Perseverance) of the Saints. Those who truly belong to Christ will by the Spirit's power hold fast to their confession (10:23), will not trample the gospel underfoot and insult the Spirit of grace (10:29), will not throw away their confidence (10:35), will endure (10:36), and will not shrink back (10:39). Those who do were never Christ's in the first place. --Joe! |
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3 | What sort of judgment is this? | Heb 10:26 | BadDog | 63476 | ||
Reformer Joe, Yours is clearly a reformed position, while mine is not (free grace). Hence w/ a different set of assumptions, we've arrived at some different conclusions here (though neither is Arminian). We are both saying something similar re. the eternal security of the believer, but while I view the believer as being in view here (and eternally secure), you say above that such a person must never have been Christ's in the 1st place. Now, my question: Is judgment always eternal judgment? And if not, then what sort of judgment is in view here? BTW, everyone should feel free to comment on this. Thanks, BadDog |
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4 | What sort of judgment is this? | Heb 10:26 | Reformer Joe | 63485 | ||
"Now, my question: Is judgment always eternal judgment? And if not, then what sort of judgment is in view here?" All judgment is not eternal judgment, but I think that is what in view in here. The author is addressing people who are shrinking back, leaving the covenant community of God and rejecting Christ. There are several statements which indicate this: "For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES."--Hebrews 10:26-27 The writer speaks here of no sacrifice remaining for these sins. Without a sacrifice for our sins, where do we stand before a just and holy God? "But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul." --Hebrews 10:39 We have two opposite scenarios here: 1. Shrinking back to destruction. 2. Having faith to the preserving of the soul. Since the writer juxtaposes these two scenarios, it is logical to think that those who have faith will not "shrink back" and those who are destroyed do not have their souls preserved. Also, calling attention to physical destruction does not make a lot of sense to me, because it is precisely because of physical harm and destruction that many were being tempted to deny Christ. "Shrinking back" meant in most cases being spared from physical destruction in this life. "Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?" --Hebrews 10:28-29 What we have above is an argument from the lesser to the greater. If violating the Mosaic Covenant called for a merciless death, how much more severe will be the merciless judgment from God? The images here are trampling Jesus underfoot, regarding the blood of Christ to be unclean, and insulting the Holy Spirit (bringing to my mind Mark 3:29). These are things that the unregenerate do, not the genuine children of God. --Joe! |
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5 | What sort of judgment is this? | Heb 10:26 | BadDog | 63493 | ||
Joe, Thanks for your clear response. I agree w/ much of it. But I would like to make a couple of points which would indicate, at least to me, that believers are in view here. Let me start w/ your quote of Heb. 10:28,29: "Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant *by which he was sanctified*, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?" Notice the portion I highlighted between *s. "by which he was sanctified." Unbelievers are not sanctified. I'd also like to briefly look at Heb. 10:39, the vs. which leads people to assume that this could not be referring to believers here: Hebrews 10:39 "But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul." Now I agree w/ you that when he says "we are not of those who shrink back to destruction..." that he is addressing believers here. Of course, he says, "we," including his Jewish readers. However, the Gk. APOLEIA (trans. "destruction" here) is used in the NT for temporal as well as eternal destruction, and other meanings as well. (Matt. 26:8 - "why was this WASTED?" is one such example.) It basically means to destroy, ruin or lose. I point this out so that it is accepted that to say that this could be referring to the physical destruction of life you mentioned above is well within the realm of lexical meaning here. Once that is accepted, the entire passage opens up as referring to believers as the more logical interpretation, taken in context, IMHO. Thanks, BadDog |
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6 | What sort of judgment is this? | Heb 10:26 | Reformer Joe | 63505 | ||
You wrote: 'Notice the portion I highlighted between *s. "by which he was sanctified." Unbelievers are not sanctified.' Depends what you mean by "sanctified." If the passage is talking about the Holy Spirit's progressive work in the life of the child of God, I agree. However, to be sanctified means to be "set apart" as well. I come from a biblical understanding that the visible church is the covenant people of God. The visible church contains all professing believers and their children. However, not all professing believers (i.e. those in the visible church) are indeed truly regenerate. Every descendant of Jacob was a member of the Mosaic Covenant, but not every Israelite was a covenant keeper. Many showed themselves to be not God's people by being a covenant breaker. The author of Hebrews alludes to them in Hebrews 10:28, and Paul refers to them in Romans 9 when he says that "For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel." These are people who were set apart by the covenant ("sanctified"), but who showed themselves to be enemies of God by rejecting the Messiah. Likewise, everyone in the visible church could be said to have been "set apart." Baptism is the initiatory rite into the visible church, but I think that you and I would both agree that not everyone who has been "sanctified" outwardly is indeed a child of God. Jesus himself spoke of "wheat and tares" in Matthew 13, spoke of false brethren in Matthew 7, and 1 John 2 indicates that there were people departing from the visible church because "they were never of us." Therefore, the grammatical question regarding Hebrews 10:29 would be whether it is the BLOOD that sanctifies them or the COVENANT that sanctifies them. Because not all who are visibly sanctified within the context of the New Covenant are truly of the invisible communion of saints. Let me know what you think. Also, what about the contrast in verse 39? You didn't respond to that in your last post. Thanks! --Joe! |
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7 | RU saying some sanctified aren't saved? | Heb 10:26 | BadDog | 63506 | ||
Joe, Thanks for your comments - good stuff to ruminate over. I'll address the last one 1st. If you look back at my previous response, I did respond to vs. 39 - destruction does NOT always refer to E. life destruction, and is often used in the NT to refer to temporal destruction, waste, etc. Before I answer your other comments, I have a question - I am aware of the theological concept of progressive sanctification (and agree that there isa distinction between sanctification that occurs to all believers at the new birth and prog. sanct.) But my question is whether or not you are saying that this passage here does say that these people were sanctified, yet that does NOT mean that they were regenerate!? Are you saying that one can be sanctified but not a Christian? Thanks, BadDog |
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8 | RU saying some sanctified aren't saved? | Heb 10:26 | Reformer Joe | 63511 | ||
You wrote: "If you look back at my previous response, I did respond to vs. 39 - destruction does NOT always refer to E. life destruction, and is often used in the NT to refer to temporal destruction, waste, etc." I read that, but I was talking about the juxtaposition between "shrinking back" and "having faith". Those seem to be presented as opposites (i.e. one that falls into one of those categories does not fall into the other), as do "being destroyed" and having one's SOUL preserved. Why would the writer emphasize preservation of the soul if physical destruction is what the Holy Spirit had in view here? "But my question is whether or not you are saying that this passage here does say that these people were sanctified, yet that does NOT mean that they were regenerate!? Are you saying that one can be sanctified but not a Christian?" What I am saying is that one can be OUTWARDLY sanctified (e.g. set apart by baptism, or circumcision in the case of the OT Israelite) and not truly be a Christian. I just wanted to point out that the sanctification referred to in Hebrews 10:29 does not necessarily refer to an inward, spiritual transformation. In fact, I think to give it that meaning would lend credence to an Arminian understanding of the passage. We see outward sanctification throughout the Bible, from the consecration of the tabernacle and its contents, to the Nazirite vow (a special "setting apart"). One could even say that while the Protestant view of baptism and the Lord's Supper do not lend themselves to any kind of supernatural transformation of the the water, the bread, and the cup, that they are sanctified for a holy use. The word "sanctuary" itself comes from the same word, to connote a space set apart for the worship of God. With regard to people, we also see this in the New Testament: "For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband; for otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy." --1 Corinthians 7:14 Here we have unbelievers referred to as "sanctified." Obviously their unbelief means that they are not Christians, but they do have a special status (NOT salvation) as being set apart for the sake of the children of the believer. This is a challenging verse, but one thing is certain: there are unbelievers in the Bible who are referred to as "sanctified," and to me it makes the most sense to consider this outward "sanctification" as the one the writer of Hebrews mentions as well. --Joe! |
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9 | RU saying some sanctified aren't saved? | Heb 10:26 | BadDog | 63546 | ||
Joe, Thanks much - this was a very good response to my question. The 1 Corin. 7 passage is a good example of the general use of "sanctified" for unbelievers as meaning "set apart for a purpose," and you are right. However, FWIW, this idea of being set apart for a purpose really has to do w/ its use re. things according to the lexicons. When referring to people, it, in general, has the idea of "making holy." However, the context of Heb. 10:29 makes it clear that inward sanctification is in view, IMO: 10:19 "Therefore BRETHREN, since WE have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus... and since..." 10:22 - 25 several "let us" - The author is including the readers w/ himself as believers in this exhortation. 10:26 "For if we sin willfully (The NASB "go-on sinning willfully" is really stretching a simple present tense in Gk.) after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. (capitalized by NASB as an OT quote). 10:30 - "... And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE." (They are HIS PEOPLE, not unbelievers) 10:32ff "But remember the former days, when, *after being enlightened* (these are believers who are enlightened), you endured a great conflict of sufferings, 33 partly by being made a public spectacle through reproaches and tribulations (They suffered as believers for Christ), and partly by becoming sharers with those who were so treated. 34 For you showed sympathy to the prisoners and accepted joyfully the seizure of your property, knowing that you have for yourselves a better possession and a lasting one. (They suffered all those things before because, like Abraham, they were looking to a better possession - *a lasting one.* How can these not be believers?!) 10:35, 36 "Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great *reward*. 36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised. (Believers are rewarded for faithful service - "Well done thou good and faithful servant" Unbelievers are not offered the possibility of rewards.) Now we come to 10:39 - 38, 39 BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM. (This is again cap. by NASB as OT quote) 39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul (SUXH - is often best translated LIFE, as in 1 Peter 3:20 - "8 persons/lives were brought safely...). Preserving of the soul here just means saving the life. It can and often does mean the physical life in the NT - actually more often than anything else. So, if the Jewish believers Barnabas (or whoever the author was) was writing to were to endure, they would preserve a life lived for Him. A life that meant something, as of value to God. Anyway, that's how I see this passage and the context, Joe - FWIW. Thanks for this insightful and energetic interaction, Joe. The above ideas are just how I see it. Thanks for giving me something to consider, and I hope you, and others on this list who may not have considered Hebrews in this light before, will consider my ideas also. BadDog |
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