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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | difference in trinity and oneness | 1 Tim 2:12 | Reformer Joe | 4624 | ||
Trinitarians and "Oneness" adherents both believe in one God. They also both believe that The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are clearly identified as God in Scripture. Where Trinitarians and modalists part ways is here: Trinitarians assert that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, while each being fully God, are three distinct "persons." That is, the Father exists simultaneously with the Son and the Holy Spirit, meaning the Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Spirit, and the Spirit is not the Father. Onesness folks deny this, saying that the Father is the Son and the Holy Spirit (usually claiming that Jesus is all three), and that God just acts in different roles or "modes" at different times. It is not an insignificant controversy, as some on this forum seem to have suggested. We are talking about the very nature of who God is, and one's entire theology stems from his/her understanding of the nature of God. So, Oneness states "One God, three roles." Trinitarianism declares "One God, three persons each of whom is fully God, and distinct roles for each person of the Trinity (even though there is cooperation among them all in creation and salvation)." I have yet to have any "oneness" follower satisfactorily explain away Jesus' references to the Father as distinct from himself, simultaneous manifestations of all three, God the Father's references to Jesus as distinct from himself, Jesus' references to the Spirit as being distinct from himself, the fact that the Son is the mediator between the Father and Christians, the fact that "God made Him who had no sin to be sin for us" (1 Corinthians 5:21), etc., etc. The fact is that the early church councils who codified the term "Trinity" were not inventing some heresy, but articulating what God reveals about himself in the whole of Scripture. The Bible teaches the Trinity, and any deviation from this doctrine leads to heresy and cultism. --Joe! |
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2 | difference in trinity and oneness | 1 Tim 2:12 | RevC | 4662 | ||
Here is some food for thought on trinity and oneness 1. Is the word trinity in the Bible? No. 2. Does the Bible say that there are three persons in the Godhead? No. 3. Does the Bible speak of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost? Yes. 4. Do these titles as used in Matthew 28:19 mean that there are three separate and distinct persons in the Godhead? No, they refer to three offices, roles, or relationship to humanity. 5. Does the Bible use the word three in reference to God? Only one verse in the entire Bible does so-I John 5:7. It speaks of the Father, the Word (instead of Son), and the Holy Ghost, and it concludes by saying, "These three are one." 6. Does the Bible use the word one in reference to God? Yes, many times. For example, see Zechariah 14:9; Malachi 2:10; Matthew 23:9; Mark 12:29, 32; John 8:41; 10:30; Romans 3:30; I Corinthians 8:4; Galatians 3:20; I Timothy 2:5; James 2:19. 7. Can the mystery of the Godhead be understood? Yes. Romans 1:20; Colossians 2:9; I Timothy 3:16. 8. Has the Christian only one Heavenly Father? Yes. Matthew 23:9. 9. Then why did Jesus say to Philip, "He that hath seen me hath seen the Father" (John 14:9)? Because Jesus is the express image of God's person. Hebrews 1:3. The Greek word for personin this verse literally means "substance." 10. Does the Bible say that there are two persons in the Godhead? No. 11. Does the Bible say that all the Godhead is revealed in one person? Yes, in Jesus Christ. II Corinthians 4:4; Colossians 1:19; 2:9; Hebrews 1:3. 12. Is the mystery of the Deity hidden from some people? Yes. Luke 10:21-22. 13. Who is the Father? The Father is the one God, particularly as revealed in parental relationship to humanity. Deuteronomy 32:6; Malachi 2:10. 14. Where was God the Father while Jesus was on earth? The Father was in Christ. John 14:10; II Corinthians 5:19. He was also in heaven, for God is omnipresent. 15. Did the prophet Isaiah say that Jesus would be the Father? Yes. Isaiah 9:6; 63:16. 16. When God said, "Let us make man in our image" (Genesis 1:26), was He speaking to another person in the Godhead? No. Isaiah 44:24; Malachi 2:10. 17. How many of God's qualities were in Christ? All. Colossians 2:9. 18. How may we see the God who sent Jesus into the world? By seeing Jesus. John 12:44-45; 14:9. 19. Does the Bible say that Jesus is the Almighty? Yes. Revelation 1:8 20. Whom do some designate as the first person in the trinity? God the Father. 21. Whom do some designate as the last person in the trinity? The Holy Ghost. But Jesus said that He was the first and last. Revelation 1:17-18 22. How many persons did John see sitting on the throne in heaven? One. Revelation 4:2. 23. If Jesus is the first and the last, why did God say in Isaiah 44:6 that He was the first and the last? Because Jesus is the God of the Old Testament incarnate. 24. Did Jesus tell Satan that God alone should be worshipped? Yes. Matthew 4:10 25. Does the devil believe in more than one God? No. James 2:19. 26. Does the Bible say that God, who is the Word, was made flesh? Yes John 1:1, 14. 27. For what purpose was God manifested in the flesh? To save sinners. Hebrews 2:9, 14. 28. Was Jesus God manifested in the flesh? Yes. I Timothy 3:16. 29. Could Jesus have been on earth and in heaven at the same time? Yes. John 3:13. 30. Does the Bible say that there is but one Lord? Yes. Isaiah 45:18; Ephesians 4:5. 31. Does the Bible say that Christ is the Lord? Yes. Luke 2:11. 33. How could the church belong to Jesus (Matthew 16:18) and yet be the church of God (I Corinthians 10:32)? Because Jesus is God in the flesh. 34. Will God give His glory to another? No. Isaiah 42:8. 35. Was there a God formed before Jehovah, or will there be one formed after? No. Isaiah 43:10. 36. What is one thing that God does not know? Another God. Isaiah 44:8. 37. What is one thing that God Cannot do? Lie. Titus 1:2. 38. How many Gods should we know? Only one. Hosea 13:4. 39. How many names has the Lord? One. Zechariah 14:9. 40. Is it good to think upon the name of the Lord? Yes. Malachi 3:16. 42. Why, then, was Jesus able to walk upon the Sea of Galilee (Matthew 14:25)? Because He is God the Creator. Colossians 1:16. 43. Is God the only one who can forgive sin? Yes. Isiah 43:25; Mark 2:7. 44. Why, then, could Jesus forgive sin in Mark 2:5-11? Because He is God the Savior. 45. Does the Bible say that there is only one wise God? Yes. Jude 25. 46. Does the Bible call the Holy Ghost a second or third person in the Godhead? No. The Holy Ghost is the one Spirit of God, the one God Himself at work in our lives. John 4:24; I Corinthians 3:16-17; 6:19; 12:13. |
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3 | difference in trinity and oneness | 1 Tim 2:12 | Reformer Joe | 4715 | ||
To answer: 1. So what? It is irrelevant. 2. Sure it does, Not in a single verse, but doctrines built on single verses often are easily debunked. The Bible does teach the Trinity, and that all three persons are distinct but fully the one God. 3. Agreed. Not a point of contention between Trinitarians and modalists. 4. How do you get that from Matthew 28:19? Assumption on your part. In addition, I find that a God who defines himself in relation to humanity as not very sovereign. 5. 1 John 5:7 is a later addition, as any Greek NT scholar worth his salt will tell you. It simply doesn;t appear in the earliest manuscripts, which is why you will only find it in the KJV. 6. No argument. ONE God. 7. Certainly it can be apprehended. Trinitarians do it quite well. 8. Again, agreed. You DO know where Trinitarians agree with you, don't you? 9. I discussed this at length in another post in this thred. In the context of John 14-17, saying that Jesus is claiming to actually BE the Father or the Spirit is completely illogical. (see verses 4:14,16,23,24,26, and on and on...Jesus clearly points out that the Father, Spirit not only do different things -- another point where Oness and Trinitarians agree -- but that they COMMUNICATE and INTERACT with one another. Does Jesus have multiple personalities then?) 10. Sure it does. Se my answer to point 2. 11. Not a point of disagreement. All the fulness of the Godhead dwells in Christ bodily. The Godhead is also expressed fully in the Father and the Spirit. This is Trinitarian. 12. Irelevant to your case (the part about it being hidden -- so what?), but the Father is delivering everything to the Son. You contend that Jesus is delivering everything to Himself? 13. God is God, regardless of His relationship to humanity. How humanistic and heretical to say that Jesus redefines himself to human beings! 14. Again, not a point of disagreement for Trinitarians. Maybe I should use a code word to abbreviate this repetitive answer. 15. Now HERE is a valid point for more extended discussion. Why don't we separate these two verses into another post and discuss these in greater detail, as this is the first point that at first glance would seem to support Oneness... 16. Both of these verses testify to ONE God. No argument from Trinitarians. However, how does one fit John 1:1-3 into a modalistic viewpoint (particularly that nagging "the Word was with God" part)? 17. You already said that. I agree. 18. See #17. 19. See #18. 20. "Some" do it? Is that your argument? In any case, as you have said, the Bible doesn't number them. The numbers do not indicate any ontological difference among the three Persons. Jesus is the Alpha and Omega. No argument. He is God. 21. See #20. 22. See #17. Not anti-Trinitarian. 23. Same reason he does in Revelation 20. Not anti-Trinitarian. Jesus is the God of the Old Testament incarnate. Just not the Father. 24. So? God should be worshiped instead of Satan. What is the point? 25. Neither do I. 26. See #17. 27. See #17. 28. See #17. 29. See #17. 30. See #17. 31. See #17. 32. Guess you concede point 32. ;) 33. See #17. 34. See #17. 35. See #17. 36. See #17. 37. See #17. 38. Ditto. 39. Very poor exegesis here. By the way, I know a few Jehovah's Witnesses who would be happy to agree with you on this verse but say that that name is NOT "Jesus." 40. Okay. 41. See #32. 42. Okay...this is REALLY getting old. If you are going to attack the clearly Biblical doctrine of the Trinity, PLEASE take the time to understand what you are railing against, because most of what you have done here is to attack the "Straw Man" version of it that the UPCI or whatever group you belong to has fed you. There is an excellent work out there called _Oneness Pentecostals and the TRinity_ by Gregory Boyd. I invite you to read it and refute it. Then I would find your much more persuasive than you have been with this non-attack. 44, 45...You know what I am going to say here. 46. See #2. Oh, and #17. And #43. Okay. Please understand one thing. Trinitarians do NOT believe in THREE GODS. We BELIEVE in one GOD, eternally existing in THREE PERSONS, not eternally existing in one person who switches from mode to mode in order to relate to humanity in different ways. Another great work is _The Forgotten Trinity_ by James R. White. When I speak out against Oneness, whether you disagree with me or not, at least I KNOW where we differ and will not spend an inordinate amount of time making assertions that will be fully accepted by both of us. PLEASE, PLEASE do not embarass yourself by arguing against things that I would also argue against as a Trinitarian! One point out of 46 (or 44 actually) which carries any weight worth debating! --Joe! |
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