Results 1 - 4 of 4
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Submit . . . unless it hurts? | Eph 5:33 | srchng | 66612 | ||
retxar, I'm afraid I wasn't as clear as I thought I was, or that perhaps you misread me. In reality, I never stated a position. Rather, I asked a set of questions in the context of citations of "models" of submission to the Lord that leave one marvelling. I had no "position" to justify with the scripture I gave. I certainly didn't "insist that a wife submitting to a physically abusive husband in a life threatening relationship is God's intent and meaning." What I actually did was ask the question. And I asked whether wives are called to a lower standard of submission to their husbands than the standard of submission to the Lord that men are called to, with a request for correction if I'd misunderstood submission. But I didn't ask it that succinctly. I also didn't assert, (as you said that scripture doesn't suggest or imply,) that abuse is the “tough pill women are required to swallow.” If you re-read, you'll see that I said that submission to anyone, even God, is a tough pill for *anyone* (not just women) to swallow, due to what we call "sin nature." And no insult toward anyone was intended. You may be right that enduring abuse, pain, injury, and death, is not “as unto the Lord”, but rather, is as unto the devil. But I wouldn't want to say that to John the Baptist, Job, Jesus, the martyrs, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, ad infinitum (or so.) I am looking for scriptural principles that can be applied to real life, even if I don't like the immediate ramifications. I'm looking for truth that supercedes temporal convenience, comfort, and even safety. I believe there's more to Life than just this life, so I need to be or *become* willing to spend this life wisely, in light of scripture. The questions at hand are these: 1) If it wasn't submission to the Lord when Job said, "Though He slay me, yet will I serve Him," (or when others surrendered even their very lives to Him,) then what is submission "unto the Lord?" 2) Do wives have a lesser calling to submission to the Lord than men (or husbands, specifically) so that they are called on to submit to their husbands less than these scriptural (and martyr-type) models of submission submitted to the Lord? (Assuming that these are God-ordained models of submission. If they aren't , please explain why, scripturally. I'd like to get your perspective.) 3) If women are called to a lesser submission "to the Lord" than men are called to, then why? 4) Are women (wives, specifically) called to submit to the Lord according to these "models," the same as men are called to submit to the Lord? 5) If women are called to submit to their husbands, "as unto the Lord," according to these scriptural "models" of submission to the Lord, then how does that exclude the painful, injurious, or deadly stuff? And the last plea I made was, "Please help me see where scripture relieves a wife of the resposibility under God to submit to her husband because it pains, injures, or even kills her." As for rightly dividing the Word of Truth, that's what I was asking for help with. Can you help? Thanks in advance, -srchng |
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2 | Submit . . . unless it hurts? | Eph 5:33 | charis | 66636 | ||
Dear srchng, Greetings in the name of Jesus! you wrote: 'And the last plea I made was, "Please help me see where scripture relieves a wife of the resposibility under God to submit to her husband because it pains, injures, or even kills her."' The New Testament does not speak to us of abusive husbands. Beacuse the Bible is pure and simple truth, it is assumed that a 'husband' is one that makes covenant and commitment to care for and protect his chosen bride, and the mother of his children. Whether the husband is saved or not, it is natural for him to behave properly. When a man steps out of the bounds of propriety and dignity, when he stoops to the gutter of abuse and abasement, he forfeits his right to claim husbandship. He has 'left' his wife, and abandoned her. To equate the bearing of insane barbary with serving the Lord is lunacy. Truly, a wife (or husband) may be called to years of unanswered prayer for the spouse's salvation. Truly, a believer may be called to bear humiliation, boredom, and loss of reputation. But a spouse who renounces their vows of love and protection has nullified the contract. Frankly, to even hint that a woman must submit to such a person, even to death, is irresponsible, even criminal. God is NOT glorified! Scripture does not have to 'relieve' a spouse from such things. Common sense does that. As to 'lesser submission,' there is no such thing. There are abusive wives, too, you know! I hope that this gives you something to ponder. Peace in Christ Jesus, charis |
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3 | Submit . . . unless it hurts? | Eph 5:33 | srchng | 66654 | ||
charis, Thank you. This sounds like good reasoning. I will poder it. No, fortunately I've never had to counsel a wife in a physically abusive relationship. But I suppose my first inclination would be to find a safe place for her and then get her husband corrected . . . maybe have him dragged naked through a briar patch. I would never advocate any kind of spousal abuse, physical or other. I wonder if, since it truly seems insane to think that a wife should tolerate physical abuse, (because her husband has already left her, or nullified the marriage)does it then follow that she should not tolerate relational neglegence, distance, etc. because he's already "left her," and is not fulfilling his husbandly duties. I agree that it seems a line should exist. but I'm not eager to draw it arbitrarily. That seems arrogant. I want to know if God said where the line is. And if wives are submitting to their husbands "as unto the Lord" when they leave for reasons of abuse (physical or other,) then doesn't the same reasoning dictate that we all should leave Christ when we feel He's not meeting our physical needs, protecting us from physical pain or threat of death, or generally taking care of us like a good husband? I don't think simple logic or rational argumentation can get us where we need to go here. It seems there must be something more. The trouble I see is that some women marry violent or abusive men, and scripture isn't clear to me on what those wives should do about it. At the turn of every page, it seems that the Bible is silent on this. I just want to see what I'm missing. I want the direction my questions point in to be proven wrong. But I want scripture, not just the cultural/political correctness I might otherwise lean toward. Thanks -srchng |
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4 | Submit . . . unless it hurts? | Eph 5:33 | charis | 66690 | ||
Dear srchng, Greetings in the name of Jesus! My friend, I well understand your desire for specific, pertinent Scripture. But please understand that there are times that the Bible often speaks through implication. I am pretty sure that the Word is not going to tell you how to fix Pentium 90MHz PC with 8MB RAM. But we might infer: "So Jesus then said to them plainly, "Lazarus is dead!" John 11:14 NASB. :-) Sorry, a little PCtech humor. Seriously, my friend, you must sometimes trust common sense and good advice. "Wisdom shouts in the street, She lifts her voice in the square;" Proverbs 1:20 NASB. "For by wise guidance you will wage war, And in abundance of counselors there is victory." Proverbs 24:6 NASB. Finally and foremost, understand that these situations must be solved case-by-case. There is no absolute. I HAVE been involved in many cases of physical and-or emotional abuse. My counsel was always accompanied by prayer and fasting, searching the Bible, and seeking the mind of God through the leading of the Holy Spirit. Each soul is individually precious in God's sight, and must be treated as such. But common sense dictates that if physical abuse is evident (not just perceived), then get that person away from the violence! (in all candor, DUH!) Now, my forum fellow, a bit of advice. If this is a specific situation, and you are asking for help, I think you have enough to work with. If, however, this is just FYI (for YOUR information), and you are asking out of idle curiosity, you are close to being annoying. You are insisting that 'there must be something more,' but some very insightful saints have told you there really IS no more. Frankly, unless there is a specific situation involving real people, then you have fallen into 'empty philosophy.' If there IS a real person involved, then the next step is to ask for pastoral advice from an experienced, trustworthy shepherd. I must go to school! (I'm the principal! :-)) Peace in Christ Jesus, charis |
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