Results 1 - 6 of 6
|
|
|||||
Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | how can suicide be the same | Eph 5:29 | mark d seyler | 155781 | ||
Hi Jeff, I would like to add to my previous comments that I think you have well defined the core problem that leads to suicide. That it is a person's refusal to acknowledge God, and to continue to look within themselves for the answers. And of course, we have no answers. But isn't it self-love that seeks to escape a negative persistant condition? If I truly hated myself, wouldn't I want to see myself miserable and suffering? If I hate someone else, that's what I want to see in them. If not for self-love, why do I seek better for myself? Love in Christ, Mark |
||||||
2 | how can suicide be the same | Eph 5:29 | jlhetrick | 155785 | ||
Hi Mark, No, I don't agree with this argument. This is the argument that Doc offered you. Again, this is the "all or nothing thinking" that requires us to have definitive Yes or no answers to questions that are more complex than yes or no. While there is no such thing as "relativness" regarding truth, there is relativneness regarding circumstances. You may hate your neighbor and want to see him "suffer" and be all sorts of miserable. Therefore, you would want to suffer if you hate yourself? Not a logical argument in my opinion. There is a significant difference between what I might think and feel about myself and what I might want to experience as a result of that thinking. For example. I have learned that I was a sinner deserving judgment and eternal separation from God. I am saved now though I continue to sin from time to time. I know this and I absolutely hate this about myself. but I do not want to punish myself with what I deserve in order to enhance my hatred toward my sin. With that said, let me add. There are people that I work with that do very intentionally cause harm and suffering to themselves and in some cases it is the result of being dissapointed with themselves to the point of believing they need to be punished. Sometimes it is more of an impulsive act done while agitated. These people are very very different from the suicidal patient. finally, you wrote: "If not for self-love, why do I seek better for myself?" As I have said, this is the "all or nothing" way of considering the question. For the unsaved it is most often (in my opinion) the love for self that motivates bettering oneself. To answer your question specifically, that is regarding you yourself, I would hope that the answer is your love for God and not self. Jeff |
||||||
3 | how can suicide be the same | Eph 5:29 | mark d seyler | 155786 | ||
Hi Jeff, I guess in my thinking I equate "believe", "think", and "feel" with "act", "do", and "am". That the state of my mind will dictate the direction of my body. There may be many levels to look through before reaching the actual directing factors, but that ultimately, you can discern a person's actual beliefs and values by what they do. This does lead me into an all or nothing, black or white kind of mindset. That also seems to be how I understand the Bible, that things are a certain way, or that they are not that way. And Jeff, I have no wish to accuse you of blasphemey. In asking you if you thought that Eph 5:29 did not mean what it said, it is my only desire to remain true to the Word of God. I admit I asked a rather pointed question, and I apologize if this brought offense. I'm sorry, I did not mean it that way. And I must apologize, also, because you're perfectly right, you had already made clear that you did not accept that verse as having the plain, face meaning of the scripture, and offered the passage from Job, where he says that even if he were perfect, he would still know his own soul, and would hate his life. But that was the reason for my question, in asking if to hate one's life is the same as hating their body. You know from your experience, as you have said yourself, it gets all mixed up, and the ways we act are not consistent with how we present ourselves. I contend that if you go deeply enough, you will find there is consistancy. But before I were to agree with you, that we could call a certain passage a "generalization", and not a plain statement of fact, I need to know where the Bible allows that, or even requires that meaning. I just don't see it in Job. And disagreements aside, you have offered much food for thought. And I am glad that you as a believer are in that field. It sounds like you are working with some very hurting people. Thank you for your kindness and patience. Love in Christ, Mark |
||||||
4 | how can suicide be the same | Eph 5:29 | jlhetrick | 155804 | ||
Hi Mark, I appreciate your described way of thinking but caution that this approach can sometimes be faulty. "Acting" based on ones "state of mind" can have disastrous consequences and even be dangerous (as I have attempted to demonstrate in previous posts here). And thanks for explaining how you see the bible with a "black and white kind of mind set". I don't criticize this statement because I think I know where you are coming from. That is, trying to demonstrate that you believe in the inerrancy of scripture. This I applaud and assure you that we hold this in common. But God expects us to do more than read His word. We are to read it and understand it in the context of all that has been given therin. Black and white thinking isn't sufficient in the study and discernment of God's word to us. A deeper, thoughtful approach is necessary. (please see 2 Tim. 2:15) I accept your appology in not meaning to bring offense by your pointed question, but then you offend me in the next paragraph. Again, I feel you twist my statments and meaning in order to, well, accuse me of blasphemy. You write: "you had already made clear that you did not accept that verse as having the plain, face meaning of the scripture" I shall expect an apology for this statment. Sir, I ask you to assign "plain, face meaning of scripture" by heading 2 Tim. 2:15 and reevaluate the verse in context of the passage and the rest of scripture. And as to why you asked the question in the first place, I believe that I did and do understand that. If you carefully read Doc's post to your original question and them carefully read mine, I think you might discover that I was actually giving opinion and belief that supported your original thoughts on this while throwing caution to some of what Doc had written, that is; that "suicide is ultimately rooted in self-love" which contradicted your premise articulated in your question. Finally, in having the bible allow for the verse in question being a generalization, I believe that the vers in Job very directly opposes the black and white thinking that absolutely no human being can or will "hate his body" or himself. In fact, you articulated in your original post that you yourself do not even believe this. One final attempt to make my point here. Let me try to give a short example from scripture of how a seemingly definative statement might actually represent a generalization. 1 Cor 7:29 What I mean, brothers, is that the time is short. From now on those who have wives should live as if they had none NIV Mark, I am a married man. Shall I get up from my computer tonight, go to bed, rise in the morning, and live the rest of my life as a single man? Would that be taking the scriptures at "plain, face value"? Sincerely, Jeff |
||||||
5 | how can suicide be the same | Eph 5:29 | Bows44 | 155822 | ||
Hi Jeff, I appreciate all of your input and the discussion it engendered. Much has been clarified. Just wanted to make sure that you knew it was I and not Mark who posted the original question because it seemed as if there may have been some confusion based on your comment to Mark in your last post... If you carefully read Doc's post to your original question and them carefully read mine, I think you might discover that I was actually giving opinion and belief that supported your original thoughts on this while throwing caution to some of what Doc had written, that is; that "suicide is ultimately rooted in self-love" which contradicted your premise articulated in your question. Sincerely, Bows44 P.S. I also want to thank you for your ministry to those who are hurting. Bless you as you share the hope and salvation we have in Jesus. |
||||||
6 | how can suicide be the same | Eph 5:29 | jlhetrick | 155838 | ||
Hi Bows44, I apologize and thanks for the correction. I also owe Mark an apology because I was in fact referring to your post and applying it to him. So, Mark, if you read this, I appologize for that and please disregard the section of my post regarding this. Jeff |
||||||