Results 1 - 8 of 8
|
|
|||||
Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | how can suicide be the same | Eph 5:29 | Bows44 | 155724 | ||
Dear Doc, Well at least this attempt makes more sense than the first. But I am not denying scripture by asking for greater understanding of it. I may not use the words you think I should use all of the time, but the intention is pure. By asking for understanding, I am admitting the problem is with my understanding and not the Word. Try thinking the best of me instead of the worst. 1 Corinthians 13:4-7 4 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, 5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, 6 does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Yours in Christ, Bows44 |
||||||
2 | how can suicide be the same | Eph 5:29 | jlhetrick | 155776 | ||
Hello Bows44, Let me jump in and attempt to give additional insight. I was interested in reading the exchange between you and Doc as you each seem to have an understanding of this issue from different ends of the spectrum. My views are my "personal" understanding of this issue as both a christian and a liscensed professional practicing in the "realm" of mental health. Eph. 5:29 can not possibly be anything other than a generalization (foucsing on the norm) used to make the point of the passage which is that a man is called to love his wife in the way a "normal" or "typical" man would love himself in that he tends to all of his personal needs be they emotinal or physical. Remember context. Job 9:21 says "Though I were perfect, yet would I not know my soul: I would despise my life." (KJV) Job, while not saying that he in fact did despise his life, certainly had the understanding that it is possible that one might despise his life. Jude 1:8 says "Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities." (KJV) Now the obvious rebuttle to my argument here will include that the "defiling" of the flesh in this verse actually speaks to the sinful behavior resulting from the sinful loving of the flesh. This argument is missing the point so I "point" it out here. The real focus of the verse in this arguement is "despise dominion". Here, in my opinion, is where the issue of loving verses hating oneself (or despising oneself) might involve the issue of suicide. Before christ, dominion rests in the flesh. To the unsaved person he/she is lord of their own life and choses those things "fitting" as demanded by the flesh. Upon being saved, lordship (that is dominion/authority) is given over to God. The fight cointinues with the flesh however, and we might find ourselves "despising" the flesh. that is, we become unhappy and unsatisfied with our behavior when it is sinful and self-serving. We confess to the authority (God) in our lives and receive forgiveness and hope. But what about the unsaved. He/she too can become unhappy and unsatisfied with his behavior and more specifically the psychosocial stressors resulting. The problem is that he is his own authority and finds himself hopelessly incapable of managing the circumstances by his own devices. He doesn't know the Lord, he has no hope. If relief is not found, the sense of hopelessness can become overwhelming. Depression is a "real" thing. A person who truly feels no hope may see suicide as the "only" hope of escaping their persistant condition. This is the point that people might argue that they "love" themselves so much that they will kill themselves in order to escape the misery. This isn't good logic and certainly doesn't reflect what is really going on regarding the persons thought process and behavior. It is fair to say, (again in my opinion) that suicide is certainly a "selfish" act in that the person, even in their hopeless state, continues to look within themselves for the answer; thus they continue to refuse to acknowledge the God that created them and the only one that is able to save them. But, I would argue that this "selfishness" is a direct feflection of their lost and hopeless condition without the Lord rather than "self love". Hope this helps, Jeff |
||||||
3 | how can suicide be the same | Eph 5:29 | mark d seyler | 155780 | ||
Hi Jeff, Do you think there is a distinction between "loving my life", "loving my self", and "loving my body"? Eph. 5:29 refers to the love we have for our "sarx", or body, and does not speak of my hatred of the person I perceive myself to be, or loathing for the life I've led. Even the self-flaggelant will have breakfast, and will draw back from fire. The person who cuts themselves, or burns themselves with cigarettes will spike their hair, and pierce everything, because they want their body to look good. I will agree with you that there are severe deviations that will bring people to cause severe injury or death to themselves, but I maintain that these are exceptions to their norms, and that in more pervassive and fundamental ways, they will still "love their flesh". The Bible makes a very clear statement about this, in which I just don't see any wiggle room. So I ask you: When the Bible says "No one ever hated their own body," are you saying that it doesn't really mean that? Love in Christ, Mark |
||||||
4 | how can suicide be the same | Eph 5:29 | jlhetrick | 155784 | ||
I think you play on words here which is something I attempted to satisfy with my response. I'll repeat myself. I think/believe that the statement made in the verse "no one ever hated their own body" was a generalization that has nothing at all to do with your presentation here. It was a statement meant to represent the rational or "typical" thinking and behavior regarding the attentiveness shown toward oneself which should be in turn shown toward the wife (which is the point of the passage). The point of the passage is in no way to present an argument that definitively states that the human being is not and will not be capable of hating (or not loving) himself or his body. I believe the verse I quoted from Job demonstrates this truth. you wrote: "Do you think there is a distinction between "loving my life", "loving my self", and "loving my body"? I ask, if you love yourself do you hate your body? If you hate your body do you love yourself? If you hate your body and yourself do you love your life? It is perhapse this type of "reading into" the verse that caused the confusion and original question in the first place. From your question it appeared that you were sincerely seeking an answer to a lagitimate question but then you appear to be rejecting the feedback offered by those who have responded. Leaves me confused about your motives. Finally, you wrote: "When the Bible says "No one ever hated their own body," are you saying that it doesn't really mean that?" Please don't attempt to draw me into that familiar, weak, philosophical argument meant to accuse blasphemy. Questions such as these are only appropriate when the questioned did not offer appropriate explanation for his comment which I have done twice now. Jeff |
||||||
5 | how can suicide be the same | Eph 5:29 | DocTrinsograce | 155811 | ||
Dear Jeff, What in the world is this: "...meant to accuse blasphemy..." That's reaching pretty far. It implies that you can read Mark's actual intentions. Mark is only asking a question... and giving you opportunity to clarify your position. I saw no accusation at all. Indeed, I'd call the rest of the forum to point it out if I am mistaken. By your own admission you are pretty sensitive -- but accusing a saint of luring you into sin is branching far beyond simple sensitivity! In Him, Doc |
||||||
6 | how can suicide be the same | Eph 5:29 | jlhetrick | 155839 | ||
Hi Doc, You will have to read Mark's comments in their context to understand my statement you are questioning here. At no point in this thread (or any other) did I say or suggest that the bible does not say what it says. Rather, I question from time to time whether the bible says what other's might try to extrapolate from it. Context, context, context.... Jeff |
||||||
7 | how can suicide be the same | Eph 5:29 | DocTrinsograce | 155850 | ||
Hi, Jeff... Extrapolation is an indispensable aspect of communication in any area. All that the Bible says is true, although not all truth is in the Bible. Without extrapolations, we wouldn't understand anyone! Remember, there is only ONE interpretation (2 Peter 1:20) of any given Scripture, although there are many applications. You might want to examine the practice of hermeneutics in jurisprudence. Although folks are trying to do this same sort of thing with language in the legal system nowadays, the fundamental roots of a proper hermeneutic have been carefully worked out in jurisprudence. Interestingly enough, they have built upon the foundation of Scriptural hermeneutics. However, their logic stands solidly on its own. Good thing, too, or there would be nothing but confusion in our world. As those standards of good exegesis are abandoned, we will, indeed, see more and more confusion! Now I'm not saying that the study of law is our foundation. I'm saying that they articulate the principles very well. This is a very old argument. Orthodoxy faces it in almost every generation. Modern liberal interpreters -- believing themselves wise and original -- argue, "It isn't what the writer meant, it is what it means to me." Consequently we have a great deal of error in modern evangelicalism. In Him, Doc |
||||||
8 | how can suicide be the same | Eph 5:29 | jlhetrick | 155852 | ||
Doc, Thank you for your comments here and for supporting my argument. I find it a laborious task to ridirect the thinking of some who seek to understand the scriptures through understanding what they mean to them rather than seeing and understanding what the writer meant. Well said. Jeff |
||||||