Results 1 - 6 of 6
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Difference backsliden or not saved? | 2 Cor 13:5 | mark d seyler | 173351 | ||
Hi Doc, What passages of Scripture show us regeneration occuring in people before Jesus died? In your examples, you listed David, Isaiah, and Peter when Jesus called him to discipleship. You have asserted that as these examples were taking place, they had already been regenerated. Where does the Bible say that? Love in Christ, Mark |
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2 | Difference backsliden or not saved? | 2 Cor 13:5 | DocTrinsograce | 173409 | ||
Dear Brother Mark, You asked, "What passages of Scripture show us regeneration occuring in people before Jesus died?" (sic) That's a very good question. Thank you for asking it. As I prayerfully considered how best to answer your question, I realized that your discomfort with my language is probably rooted in an assumption. You are thinking, I believe, that when I use the term regeneration for all of the saints that I am speaking of the same subjective, salvific process, without regard to the epoch in which a man is born. I will try to clarify, Lord willing. Let's begin with a sound, Biblical definition of the word regeneration (i.e., the new genesis or new birth). James I. Packer wrote, "Regeneration is the spiritual change wrought in the heart of man by the Holy Spirit in which his/her inherently sinful nature is changed so that he/she can respond to God in Faith, and live in accordance with His will (Matthew 19:28; John 3:3,5,7; Titus 3:5). It extends to the whole nature of man, altering his governing disposition, illuminating his mind, freeing his will, and renewing his nature." In my own tradition we carefully define regeneration as "a change of heart, wrought by the Holy Spirit, who quickeneth the dead in trespasses and sins enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the Word of God, and renewing their whole nature, so that they love God and practice holiness. It is a work of God's free and special grace alone." (Abstract of Principles, 1858) B. H. Carroll, a Southern Baptist theologian, spoke of regeneration as follows: "There is, first of all, a direct influence of the Holy Spirit on the passive spirit of the sinner, quickening him or making him sensitive to the preaching of the Word. In this the sinner is passive. But he is not a subject of the new birth without contrition, repentance and faith. In exercising these he is active. Yet even his contrition is but a response to the Spirit's conviction, and the exercise of his repentance is but a response to the Spirit's conviction, and the exercise of his repentance and faith are but responses to the antecedent spiritual graces of repentance and faith." The fact that men like Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, David, Isaiah, Jeremiah, etc. had faith is indicative or evidential of God's redeeming work in their hearts. We even see in places like Ezekiel 11:19; 36:26-27, Jeremiah 31:31-34, etc. discussions in which the stone-hearted sinner must obtain a divine heart transplant before they are able to do anything for Him. "Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God." (John 8:47 ESV) If you know that He is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of Him. (1 John 2:29 ESV) [Note: As you know, we always read the OT in the light of NT.] Now, when we speak of the saints in the Old Testament, we may rightful speak of their salvation; i.e., that they are regenerate. That does not mean,however, that the experiential [note: that is a theological term, not the Charismatic term] aspect of their regeneration was the same as believers today. We read, "These [OT saints] all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. (Hebrews 11:13 ESV)" There are many benefits of the new covenant that believers today enjoy. For example, the operation of the Holy Spirit in our lives is far more intimate and direct. (We receive the Spirit in anticipation of our resurrection. He is our surety.) Throughout the Scriptures we see that God has a people. He works providentially in their lives by invading history at just the right time. The story of redemption unfolds through time in various covenants and economies. Nevertheless, as God's eternal purpose is fulfilled, all those who belong to Him are saved in precisely the same way: by grace alone, through faith alone in the Word of God alone, by the power of the Spirit alone, in the atonement of Christ alone. Help me, O LORD my God! Save me according to Your steadfast love! Let them know that this is Your hand; You, O LORD, have done it! (Psalms 109:26-27 ESV) In Him, Doc |
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3 | Difference backsliden or not saved? | 2 Cor 13:5 | mark d seyler | 173436 | ||
Hi Doc, You wrote: "Now, when we speak of the saints in the Old Testament, we may rightful speak of their salvation; i.e., that they are regenerate. That does not mean,however, that the experiential [note: that is a theological term, not the Charismatic term] aspect of their regeneration was the same as believers today." When I refer to regeneration, I am refering to the act of God creating in us a new creation: 2Co 5:17 So that if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new! I base this on the meaning of the word paliggenesia, as found in: Tit 3:5 "not by works in righteousness which we had done, but according to His mercy, He saved us through the washing of regeneration (paliggenesia) and renewal of the Holy Spirit," paliggenesia comes from "palin" - again, and "genesis" - generation, to become, i.e. birth. So regeneration is re-birth, and results in us being a new creation. Peter echos this in: 1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, He according to His great mercy having regenerated (from anagennaw - again begotten) us to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead," And so it is through the resurrection of Jesus that a work is done in the believer, which is to re-create them as a new creation. As Jesus is risen into a new life, so are we. Of this person it is written: Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ, and I live; yet no longer I, but Christ lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh, I live by faith toward the Son of God, the One loving me and giving Himself over on my behalf. So Biblically, regeneration is when the life of Christ is created in a person, and that person is now a new creation. Would you agree or disagree? If you disagree, then this would be the root of our difference on this, in my opinion. We are using the word in different ways. If you agree, are you then saying that this is what happened to people in the Old Testament times? Regarding the passages you mentioned in Ezekiel and Jeremiah: Eze 11:17 So the Lord Jehovah says this: I shall gather you from the peoples, and assemble you out of the lands, in those where you were scattered, and I shall give to you the land of Israel. Eze 11:18 And they will come there, and they will remove all its hateful things and all its abominations from it. Eze 11:19 And I shall give to them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you. And I will remove the stony heart out of their flesh, and I will give them a heart of flesh, Eze 11:20 so that they may walk in My statutes and keep My judgments, and do them. And they shall be to Me for a people, and I will be to them for God. This passage says that this is something God will do after regathering Israel. Eze 36:24 For I will take you from the nations and gather you out of all the lands and bring you into your land. Eze 36:25 Then I will sprinkle clean waters on you, and you shall be clean. I will cleanse you from all your defilement and from all your idols. Eze 36:26 And I will also give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit within you. And I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give to you a heart of flesh. Eze 36:27 And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you shall keep My judgments and do them. Eze 36:28 And you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers. And you shall be a people to Me, and I will be God to you. This passage says essentially the same thing. Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, says Jehovah, that I will cut a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, Jer 31:32 not according to the covenant that I cut with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt (which covenant of Mine they broke, although I was a husband to them, says Jehovah). Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will cut with the house of Israel: After those days, declares Jehovah, I will put My Law in their inward parts, and I will write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. This passage tells us that in a time yet to come God will institute a new covenant, and it will be after that that God will "write His law on their hearts". This naturally leads us to Jesus at the Last Supper, instituting the New Covenant. Are you asserting that these passages are not in fact prophetic of a future time? Doesn't the quote from Carroll disagree with your previous post? If I recall, you have said that repentance follows regeneration, while Carroll states that rebirth is contingent on repentance. This leads me to again wonder if perhaps you understand regeneration to be something other than rebirth. Love in Christ, mark |
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4 | Difference backsliden or not saved? | 2 Cor 13:5 | DocTrinsograce | 173559 | ||
Dear Brother Mark, You wrote, "And so it is through the resurrection of Jesus that a work is done in the believer..." No, the work of Christ is atonement. The work of the Father is election. The work of the Holy Spirit is regeneration. (See John chapter 3.) You asked, "So Biblically, regeneration is when the life of Christ is created in a person, and that person is now a new creation. Would you agree or disagree?" Since you insist, I'd have to agree. However your definition is much too general. Certainly the lack of specificity helps you in your arguments, but I'd posit that it is better to come up with a more definition that is not just solely based on the Word, but also everything the Word has to offer toward a definition; in other words, a definition exhaustively based on Scripture. I'm puzzled. When I've offered a complete definition, you want me to agree to a less rigid one. All I can do is refer you back to the definition I've given. You asked, "Doesn't the quote from Carroll disagree with your previous post?" No, Dr. Carroll specifically states that quickening precedes repentance. The word "quickening" is an old English word for being made alive. In other words, tantamount to the metaphor used by Christ as being born again; i.e., rebirth. In Him, Doc "The specific operation of God that is in view in the doctrine of irresistible grace is the divine work of regeneration. Regeneration literally means 'to regenerate again.' It is the concept that rests upon Scripture's teaching concerning rebirth or being born anew. This is the idea expressed in Paul's concept of 'quickening,' by which the sinful person is raised from spiritual death to spiritual life. "Most Christians agree that regeneration is necessary for salvation. The debate rages over the question of how this necessary condition is met. Historic Semi-Pelagianism teaches that in order to be regenerated one first must have faith. In this schema, it is clear that faith precedes regeneration and that regeneration rests upon a prior response to faith. Thus, God is seen as offering salvation to whosoever will cooperate with His grace. "In contrast to all forms of Semi-Pelagianism, Augustianian and Reformed theology teaches that the grace of regeneration is a monergistic work that is done by God alone because it is a work only God can do. It is a work accomplished on us and in us by which our very natures are changed. It is at once a divine act of re-creation and of liberation. By re-creation we are quickened to spiritual life, or raised from the state of spiritual death. "Regeneration is not a joint venture. We do not cooperate in it because we will not cooperate in spiritual matters while we are still dead in our sins. Our hearts are totally disinclined and indisposed to the things of God. We love darkness and will not have God in our thinking. The desires of our hearts are enslaved to sin. We will never choose Christ until or unless we are liberated from that slavery. In short, we are morally unable to exercise faith until and unless we are first regenerated. "This is why the axiom of Reformed theology is that regeneration precedes faith. Rebirth is a necessary pre-condition for faith. Faith is not possible for spiritually dead creatures. Therefore, we contend that apart from spiritual rebirth there can be no faith. "Of course, once the divine initiative of regeneration has been wrought by the sovereign monergistic work of God, the rest of the Christian life is synergistic. But the transformation of the person from death to life, darkness to light, bondage to liberation is done by God alone, effectually and irresistibly. This is the Biblical basis for the church's confession Soli Deo Gloria." --R. C. Sproul |
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5 | Difference backsliden or not saved? | 2 Cor 13:5 | mark d seyler | 173568 | ||
Hi Doc, You have said that you disagree with the statement "And so it is through the resurrection of Jesus that a work is done in the believer..." I would refer you to: 1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, He according to His great mercy having regenerated (from anagennaw - again begotten) us to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead," The Father has regenerated us through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. Your disagreement is not with me, but with Scripture. Regarding the definition of regeneration, I have defined regeneration as rebirth, the single act of the new creation. This is a specific act that takes place at a specific moment of time. I have offered this definition taken straight from the pages of Scripture, without including as a part of this definition it's causes, or results. Simply what it is. I'd like to mention that each of us are being very careful in how we define our terms. That is why I took my definition directly from Scripture. "In my own tradition we carefully define regeneration as "a change of heart, wrought by the Holy Spirit, who quickeneth the dead in trespasses and sins enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the Word of God, and renewing their whole nature, so that they love God and practice holiness. It is a work of God's free and special grace alone." (Abstract of Principles, 1858" So then your traditions define regeneration as "a change of heart". This is not quite in agreement with the words the Bible uses for this. You have added that, in so many words, regeneration includes all of these other things. You have added much to the definition of "regeneration" that is not actually contained in the meanings of the words used. I look to the words used in the Bible and confine my definitions to the way that the writers used the words. Its a simple and naive way to read the Bible, I know, but I'd rather try to understand theology in the terms the Bible uses. I understand that you are saying that you have come to understand that there is much more involved than the simple terminology would seem to show, but I believe that you are backtracking a theology that is not found in the Scriptures and making the words and such fit the theology. So on this we disagree. But meanwhile, I don't think you ever answered if you think that this act of re-creation was performed in the OT saints. Likewise regarding the whether you think the Ezekiel and Jeremiah passages were not actually prophetic. I think I see my difficulty in understanding what Carroll wrote in the same way that you understand it. Carroll stated that rebirth was subject to a person's repentance, while quickening preceded repentance. If you are understanding his use of "quickening" to mean "rebirth", then he is apparently saying that rebirth both produces and is contingent upon repentance. This seems to put the cart both in front of and behind the horse. So then you think of regeneration as a process that includes multiple steps? "A man by himself working and toiling at freedom from passion achieves nothing. But if he plainly shows himself very desirous and earnest about this, he attains it by the addition of the power of God. For God conspires with willing souls. But if they abandon their eagerness, the Spirit who is bestowed by God is also restrained. For to save the unwilling is the part of one exercising compulsion. But to save the willing is that of one showing grace." - Clement of Alexandria (c. 195 AD) "He seeks all and desires to save all. He wishes to make everyone the children of God." - Hippolytus (c. 200 AD) But rather than basing our arguments on the quotes and traditions of men, I find Biblical texts to be much more compelling. Love in Christ, Mark |
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6 | Difference backsliden or not saved? | 2 Cor 13:5 | DocTrinsograce | 173573 | ||
Dear Brother Mark, You wrote, "But rather than basing our arguments on the quotes and traditions of men, I find Biblical texts to be much more compelling." Me too... but I'd add ALL of Scripture... not just pieces here and there... Acts 20:27. "The infallible rule of interpretation of Scripture is the Scripture itself; and therefore when there is a question about the true and full sense of any Scripture (which is not manifold, but one), it must be searched by other places that speak more clearly." Thank you for the discussion, buddy. In Him, Doc |
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