Results 1 - 7 of 7
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | why order is different in scripture? | 1 Cor 12:27 | Morant61 | 12461 | ||
Greetings Nolan! I think the key point that Hank Hanegraaf is making is simply that the offices of apostle and prophet are not longer active. I have been following this thread, and part of the "heat" seems to come from the thought that Hanegraaf is saying that "prophecy" is no longer valid. However, this isn't what he is saying. There is still a gift of "prophecy." I even think there may still be a gift of "apostleship." However, these offices are no longer active. Apostles and prophets revealed God's will. Now that Scripture is complete and salvation accomplished, we no longer need anyone to reveal God to us. There will not be any "new" books in the Bible, no new revelation from God. Everything that can be said, has been said in Christ and Scripture. In terms of the gifts, I have no problem viewing a church planter or a missionary as using the gift of an "apostle" or a someone who applies God's Word as using the gift of "prophecy." However, neither can claim to function in the office and reveal "new things" from God. This seems to be the main appeal to the emphasis upon the "five-fold ministry." Someone can claim "new revelation" directly from God and not have to be accountable to anyone for it. So I agree with you that the offices are foundational and no longer valid. I also agree with Charis that we still need the gifts of the Spirit. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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2 | Prerequisite-infallibility? | 1 Cor 12:27 | charis | 12500 | ||
Dear Tim, Nolan, and saints, I have asked this question before, but here goes. If the 'office' of apostle and prophet are no longer active, why do we still have the 'office' of pastor, evangelist, teacher? It is late, so my mind may not be so sharp...but where in the Bible does it say that the prerequisite for apostles and prophets is that they must provide *new* revelation? For that matter, where in the Bible is the prerequisite that these ministers must be infallible? Not all apostles and prophets wrotes books of the Bible. (Thomas, Philip, Bartholomew, etc.) Some of the saints that did write books were not identified as apostles or prophets. (Dr. Luke, John Mark, Jude) None of them were infallible. So why must a present-day minister be made to fulfil these requirements? Martin Luther showed a *new thing* to the church, something called 'grace.' Somtimes things are called *new* after they have been lost for a while. Apparently, the church has lost quite a few things, and the ministerial gifts are there to help find them. I am not sure that I understand 'not offices, but gifts.' This is too complicated to be of God, IMHO. I must say that it sounds as if 'church-planters,' missionaries, and appliers of God's Word are SCC (second class citizens) Why must we give so much glory to men who were simply obedient to God, and deny bona fide status to present-day ministers doing the same thing? With all due respect, this sounds like beatification to me. I look forward to answers. In Christ Jesus, charis |
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3 | Prerequisite-infallibility? | 1 Cor 12:27 | prayon | 12525 | ||
Dear Charis welcome home! Prophet: a person who communicates a divine message or an "oracle" (utterance) received from God. (Eerdmans Bible Dictionary); A persone who serves as a channel of communication between human and divine worlds (Harpers Bible Dictionary) If there are no more prophets then it must mean that God is not communicating with us any more???? Apostle: An official representative charged with a commission (Eerdmans); An apostle is "one who is sent out". An apostle is a personal messenger or envoy, commisioned to transmit the message or otherwise carry out the instructions of the commissioning agent. I guess if there are not any apostles any more then God is not sending anyone out to deliver his good news???????? In summary, I guess in certain ways we are all on our own??????? Something wrong with this picture? |
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4 | Prerequisite-infallibility? | 1 Cor 12:27 | Morant61 | 12535 | ||
Greetings Prayon! It is definitely good to have Charis back on the forum! It is good to hear from you as well! I understand your point. But, there does seem to be a distinction made in Scripture between the offices and the functions of both. Check out my response to Charis for a discussion about some of those issues. However, let me ask you a question which may clarify what I think Nolan and I are trying to say. Is the "revelation" given to a modern day "prophet or apostle" equal to or superior to the Bible? This is what those who are promoting the restoration of these two offices are saying! They don't need the Bible. God speaks to them directly. I have no problem with the gift of prophecy. However, I would immediately discount anyone who told me something that was not in harmony with Scripture. This is exactly what is happening. These people are claiming direct and "new" revelation from God. How do you argue with that? They can say or do anything they want because God "revealed" it to them. In extreme cases, it can get pretty frightening. When I was pastoring in Ohio, there was a pastor near us who got up one day and told his congregation that God had revealed to him that the church should buy him a new car. They did! A few months later, he got a 16 year old girl, in the church, pregnant. It is this potential for abuse that has me concerned. The canon has been closed. Salvation is a finished word on the cross. We need to go and make disciples, but I don't believe there will ever be any "new" revelation. I hope this clarifies what I was trying to say! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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5 | Prerequisite-infallibility? | 1 Cor 12:27 | charis | 12650 | ||
Dear Tim, and Prayon, Excuse me for butting in... As I understand it, you interpret the word 'messenger' as 'revealer,' and that the revelation must be on par with God's Word, so therefore there are no more apostles or prophets, because the canon is finished. Is that fair? But why must every message be revelatory? When you preach a sermon, do you not use modern illustration and anecdote to portray the Gospel? Strictly speaking, you are 'adding' what the Holy Spirit led you to add. Are you then blaspheming? I don't think so. I think that the church has artificially elevated the ministry of apostle and prophet to an 'office,' and that we come close to worshipping these simple, humble men of God. ( Paul put away his 'office' when he renounced his Pharisee background ) They were ministers and servants used by God. They performed His work. God continues to call His servants to do the same thing, minus the writing of the Bible. (where does it say that apostles and prophets have to write books of the Bible?) Indeed, my fellow servant, anyone who claims to have *new revelation* is false. But you won't hear much about the true apostles and prophets, because they are just serving their God in the calling He chose. God wrote the Bible, not apostles and prophets. God continues to use His anointed ministers. My friend, though there are many abusers of this title, there are even more faithful to His calling. Please do not use the example of the abusers to deny the church of His chosen ministers. This would lead us to say that false pastors (wolves) negates true pastors. Frankly, your last paragraph was sensationalism at best, and fallacious logic at worst :-) What a generalization! Pastors asking for new cars (in the Holy Spirit) will impregnate our children! My question must be, "Was he independent or part of a denomination?" Tim, this kind of abuse has been with us regardless of *revelation knowlege* or any bias! Exalted 'office-holders' have committed such acts and worse since the beginning. How do we argue with false ministers? We don't. We stay away, and preach the Word. We advise the saints to discern truth as written in the Bible. We encourage one another to search for truth, and ask the Holy Spirit to guide us personally in His Word, and through His chosen messengers. The two will agree. Again, pardon my intrusion. (But this IS a forum :-) In Jesus' name, charis |
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6 | Prerequisite-infallibility? | 1 Cor 12:27 | EdB | 12653 | ||
Charis, I have to butt in. Reference the minister asking for a new car then getting a young girl pregnant you ask was he independent or part of a denomination? What difference does it make? Both have their share of bad apples. I have witnessed these types to tragedies from both denomination and independent pastors. Be blessed and be a blessing Ed |
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7 | Prerequisite-infallibility? | 1 Cor 12:27 | charis | 12656 | ||
Dear Ed, Exactly my point! :-) (a bit of irony, my friend) The fact that this minister had a *revelation* had nothing to do with his sin! By the way, please DO butt in any time! In Jesus, charis |
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