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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | why order is different in scripture? | 1 Cor 12:27 | sweetpea | 12372 | ||
why is the order different in I Corinthians 12:27 than in scripture of the five fold ministry? | ||||||
2 | why order is different in scripture? | 1 Cor 12:27 | Makarios | 12392 | ||
Dear sweatpea, I went to www.equip.org and found this excerpt on the "five fold ministry".. "The faulty foundation of the five - fold ministry" "It has recently become popular to speak of "the five-fold ministry," a system of church government with apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers. The neo-Pentecostal "Restoration" movement and its offshoot, "Kingdom now" teaching, claims that one of the things which God is "restoring" to the church is this five-fold ministry. The sole proof text used to support this concept is Ephesians 4:11-13, which states that Christ gave "some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,....until we all attain to the unity of the faith and the full knowledge of the Son of God." The word "until," it is argued, proves that the church today needs apostles and prophets as much as evangelists, pastors, and teachers. However, it is the "building up" of the church (v.12) which must continue until the church is mature, not all five of the offices listed in verse 11. This is clear when the whole text is read as follows: "And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers; [these offices were given] to equip the saints for the work of service, [which work has as its goal] to build up the body of Christ until we all attain to the unity of the faith...." The offices of apostle and prophet would naturally cease in the church once their role in "equipping the saints" was completed; that is, once the New Testament canon was completed. Some have objected that there is no reason to bracket off the apostles and prophets from the other three offices listed in verse 11. However, in the very same epistle, Paul states that the church has "been built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets" (Eph. 2:20) and that Christ's mystery concerning the church was "revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit" (3:5). These statements indicate that the role of apostles and prophets was fulfilled in the first century. The New Testament is particularly clear about the temporary role of the apostles, since they were chosen to give eyewitness testimony of the risen Christ (Acts 1:21-26; 5:32; Luke 1:104; 1 Cor. 9:1). Paul indicated that he was the last person to see the risen Christ and receive an apostolic commission (1 Cor. 15:8). The epistles of 2 Peter and Jude, among the very last New Testament writings to be penned, exhort the readers to avoid false doctrines by recalling the teachings of the apostles (2 Pet.1:12-15; 2:1; 3:2, 14-16; Jude 3-4, 17). Peter and Jude did not say, "Listen to the apostles living today," but instead urged believers to "remember what the apostles said." I am not arguing that only the Twelve and Paul were apostles. Barnabas (Acts 14:14), Silas (1 Thess. 2:6; cf. 1:1), and Andronicus and Junia (Rom. 16:7) all were apostles of Christ, and thus were no doubt among the more than 500 witnesses to the Resurrection (1 Cor. 15:6). However, none of these persons was chosen as a successor to an earlier apostle (Matthias was Judas's replacement, not his successor, since Judas had forsaken his apostleship, Acts 1:21-26). There are other senses in which the word "apostle" is used in the New Testament. Certain individuals, including Epaphroditus, were "apostles of the churches" (2 Cor. 8:23; Phil. 2:25). These "apostles" had no authority over the church; they were messengers sent by and subject to their churches. In this latter sense it would be perfectly legitimate to speak of church representatives as "apostles," were it not for the confusion which might result from such usage. Therefore, in the usual biblical sense of the term, there are no apostles today. Nor are there any prophets in the usual sense, as they were part of the "foundation" laid in the first-century church. This is not to deny the continuing validity of the gift of "prophecy," since Paul does refer to prophesying as a basic activity in which all Christians are urged to participate to the extent God gifts them (Rom. 12:6; 1 Cor. 11:4-5; 12:10; 13:2, 8-9; 14:1-6, 20-33; 1 Thess. 5:20), and in a general functional sense persons exercising this gift are even called "prophets" (1 Cor. 14:32,37). Yet Paul also speaks of specific persons who occupied an office of "prophet" which was second in authority only to apostle (1 Cor. 12:28-29). It is this office of "prophet," not all prophecy, which I am arguing passed away around the end of the first century. http://www.equip.org, CRI, P.O. Box 7000, Rancho Santa Margarita, CA 92688" I hope this helps. --Nolan |
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3 | why order is different in scripture? | 1 Cor 12:27 | Makarios | 12393 | ||
Also stated regarding the 'five-fold' ministry is: "Finally, some errors on this matter are worse than others. The loose use of the word "apostle" to refer to missionaries or church planters is not a serious error as long as this usage is sharply distinguished from the concept of an apostle who brings new doctrinal revelations and wields unquestionable authority. Nor is it a grievous error to interpret Ephesians 4:11 to refer to "apostles" in this sense of a church planter. The same would apply to those who hold that Ephesians 4:11 refers to the ongoing charismatic activity of prophesying. I do believe these interpretations are mistaken, but they are not in any way antagonistic to Christian faith. On the other hand, to interpret Ephesians 4:11 as a call for a restoration of the office of apostle of Christ is not only a mistake in exegesis, it opens the door to heresy. To claim that the church today needs visions and revelations through modern apostles and prophets of Christ is to deny the sufficiency of the Bible (2 Tim. 3:16) and to place the church at the mercy of false apostles, the likes of whom the apostle Paul warned us about in no uncertain terms (2 Cor. 11:13-15). The teachers of the "five-fold ministry," in seeking to "restore" a foundation which has never been moved, are actually laying a false foundation which will not support the building up of the body of Christ." http://www.equip.org, CRI, P.O. Box 7000, Rancho Santa Margarita, CA 92688 --Nolan |
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4 | why order is different in scripture? | 1 Cor 12:27 | charis | 12413 | ||
Dear Nolan, I must heartily disagree with Hank Hanegraaff on this one. (actually, there are a number of areas I do :-) I am of the opinion that the Bible Answer Man is lashing out at the abuses of spiritual Christianity when he denies the present-day manifestation of the Holy Spirit. This is a common mistake in the history of the church. One group makes a bold statement of faith, but, being natural man, stumbles in their walk. Another cites the 'stumble' as proof that the statement of faith is wrong, and comes up with several pertinent Scriptures to back up their claim of superior understanding of God. The first group then retaliates, desperately searching the Word to show they were right, consequently 'returning evil for evil.' (thereby moving away from Jesus!) Group 2 then goes on the offensive, stating that not only is Group 1 wrong, but heretical, citing the 'defense' made with emotions involved. (this is also not pleasing to Jesus!) Eventually we find both camps away from the Lord, Who has not moved one millimeter! Jesus is the same, yesterday, today, and forever more. Man and his 'camps' are always shifting, always selfish. The Calvinism-Arminist debate on this forum is a case-in-point! Another is the Traditionalists-Charismatics polarism. The history of the church is full of these kind of things. Shame on us! Ephesians 4:11 is clear. Don't read into it what is not there, and don't explain away the wonderful gifts that God has given us. Duh! In Christ Jesus, charis |
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5 | why order is different in scripture? | 1 Cor 12:27 | Makarios | 12416 | ||
Dear charis, Thank you for your input! Is the "five fold ministry" something that you would support under the circumstances that you have explained regarding division within the church? There was a lot there in what I have quoted from Hank Hanegraff- where there other points about this article that you did not agree with? I'll be honest with you, I wouldn't have posted it if I did not agree at least partially with him on some of the points made. But I am always open to what you have to say, since we are trying to remove ourselves from denominational and sectarian bias and truly call ourselves "brothers" by wearing one banner, that being the banner of Christ alone. Grace and peace to you, my Brother! Nolan |
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6 | why order is different in scripture? | 1 Cor 12:27 | charis | 12433 | ||
Dear Nolan and Forum friends, Let me say first that I am not denouncing Hank Hanegraaff or his ministry. I have great respect for the majority of his opinions. (but they are opinions. Intelligent, and thorough, but his conclusions are nevertheless opinions) I cannot at this time go through every instance of disagreement (much more agreement than disagreement, by the way), but he does seem to put emphasis on a 'finished church' because we have a finished-Bible. While I believe we have a finished-Bible, I cannot see that we have a finished-church. This is why I see a continued need for the gifts of the Holy Spirit, including the ministerial gifts. That these gifts are commonly misused and abused is beside the point. The church is in need of every gift made available by God. Mr Hanegraaff states that present-day apostles and prophets must be of the quality of those in the Bible, and because they are not, they are not true apostles and prophets, therefore, there are no longer any apostles and prophets. Apostles are messengers to the church, not neccesarily bringing *new* revelation, but presenting the timeless Gospel to the church in a way that we can receive it. Indeed, if it is a *different* Gospel, we must beware! The same goes for the present-day prophets. They do not neccesarily need to be proclaiming *addendums* to the Word, and I would be leery if they did claim this ability! However, "But one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and exhortation and consolation." 1 Corinthians 14:3 NASB states the work of a bona fide prophet. Mr. Hanegraaff makes present-day apostles and prophets into buffoons, cute and non-Biblical, to be ignored as eccentrics. My point is that if we explain away something written in the Bible, we lose a gift from God. In my opinion, granted not as illustrious as Mr. Hanegraaff, he has denied us present day gifts in his campaign against the abusers of the Word. Grace back to you, Nolan, and all the saints of the Forum. In Jesus' name, charis |
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7 | why order is different in scripture? | 1 Cor 12:27 | Makarios | 12450 | ||
Dear brother charis, You have stated, "My point is that if we explain away something written in the Bible, we lose a gift from God." I must agree, we should first read what has been written at face value and see what we come up with initially without the use of any outside sources.. Then if it appears difficult to understand or if we are confronted with questions, then it is always a good idea to consult the opinions of those who have been well versed and well trained and who have made helps that are designed for the very purpose of interpreting Scripture and applying that to our lives. I know that you would be in agreement with us here, and I do appreciate your participation! I am thankful that you have explained your point in this way, and I pray that we can all come together once again in peace without any hard feelings about anything that was stated here about Mr. Hanegraaff. It is not a requirement that everyone agrees about what is submitted here, but we should not put any person's reputation on the line without some conclusive and decisive evidence. I am convinced that you were not putting Mr. Hanegraaff's reputation on the line, you were just voicing your disagreement of what he wrote concerning the structure of leadership and the spiritual gifts. Thank you brother charis, and we are glad to see you back! Nolan |
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8 | why order is different in scripture? | 1 Cor 12:27 | charis | 12456 | ||
Dear Nolan, You are right! In no way do I stand in judgment of Mr. Hanegraaff. He is without a doubt a wonderful teacher. He is (also) without a doubt a human being. If he were infallible, we would not need the Holy Spirit at all. There are many good Christian teachers, and it is inevitable that they would disagree on many points. Not one of them has ever even approached infallibility, as this is impossible for man. No matter how many hours of how many days, for however many years a person has studied the Word, limiting God by neutering His gifts to man is unwise. I maintain that all the gifts and ministries of the Holy Spirit are valid and active today, and necessary for our welfare in Christ. I contend that much of the strife and disunity we have today is from both the abuse of these, as well as the neglect of them. While my view of these gifts and ministries is decidedly conservative, to deny them altogether is irreverent. In any case, my friend(s), I harbor no ill feelings toward anyone. This is not the first time you have heard my opinions, nor is it the last! :-) I look forward to hearing your opinions, and pray that I am open to really listen. Blessings to all...in Jesus' name, charis |
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