Results 1 - 5 of 5
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Am I ignorant | 1 Cor 12:1 | jlhetrick | 211073 | ||
Brother Tim- After having read, carefully, the entire thread here I have the following observation. At this point, I can only view your position as being better supported by Scripture than those who believe any of the gifts of the Spirit have ceased. The absence of Scriptural support to prove, or really even suggest, that any gift HAS ceased is either not there or no one has pointed to it. I'm reminded of the very prudent warning to NEVER establish one's doctrine from a single verse or passage, yet, I'm not finding or being pointed to a SINGLE verse that confirms (or again even suggests) that any of the gifts have been ceased as of yet. Still, some, many do believe of the cessation of some gifts though I am not sure why only some (including tongues and healing) have been singled out to have ceased. I'm left with the questionS I had abandoned some time ago. Are the gifts of the Spirit still available to the Chruch today or have they ceased? If they have ceased, where does it say so in Scripture? If Scripture doesn't say so then why would we believe it. If they have not ceased what has caused so many to believe they have? Fortunately for me, I have learned not to allow these things to cause great distress. Like you, I will simply stick with what Scripture says. I'm always willing (even eager) to have Scripture change my position on anything when I'm wrong. On this issue I'm afraid I have to start, literally, from scratch. I've believed one way based on rational arguments for years without having done the work of fully investigating the Scriptures for myself. In this early stage of doing so, I'm not yet finding Scripture to support that any of the gifts have ceased. We should all fear to believe it either way unless we are sure of the truth. If they have in fact ceased, to believe and practice otherwise would be counterfeit. If they have not ceased, to deny them would be to deny Scripture as well as the true work of the Spirit in the Church. God bless, Jeff |
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2 | Am I ignorant | 1 Cor 12:1 | stjohn | 211074 | ||
Dear Jeff, Scripture say at least 51 times that the Sun rises or sets though we know full well that it does not do anything of the kind. So I would contend that just because we don't see specific verses that say certain gifts are no longer in use as they are no longer needed, we can still use common sense or wisdom to see that historically these things are indeed true. At least we know that some of the gifts are still needed, wisdom, being one of them. I believe your reference to believing rational arguments should be held onto. there is nothing wrong with using our noodles. :-) God bless John |
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3 | Am I ignorant | 1 Cor 12:1 | jlhetrick | 211075 | ||
John- I believe my argument at this point is that it does not appear to be a use of common sense at all, to have impressed upon our noodles something that isn't supported by Scripture (either side) simply because the argument seems rational. If you mean to suggest that common sense in absence of Scriptural truth is somehow a trumping card I fear you're not only not using your noodle, but maybe drifting even further into error. To make the argument that Scripture says an untruth (as in your referencing the rising and setting of the sun) is as far from attention to context as we might arrive at my friend. There is a rather big word that I can't bring to recall at this moment that deals with this... it involves the use of language, sometimes figuratively, to explain something in a way that makes sense to the hearer. Some writers of Scripture choosing to do this in referring to thte rising and setting of the sun just doesn't fit into this debate. So when I speak of rational arguments, I'm not at all intending to suggest that having something impressed upon our noodle through good sounding arguments should cause us to arrive at a conclusion. I do mean, as I have always held, that we arrive at no final conclusion that Scripture does not. That, my friend, is what we should both be holding on to. God bless, Jeff |
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4 | Am I ignorant | 1 Cor 12:1 | stjohn | 211082 | ||
Jeff, the only thing I can say is that I was first involved as a new Christian in a Church that taught that all the gifts were still available, I had no other doctrine to go on, but something just wasn't right. Only after many, many months on my face in prayer and in His book in prayer did I come to the conclusions that I have come to. Please believe me friend, it tore me apart, because I so loved these people and still do, but It was NOT the teaching of man nor common sense but the Holy Spirit that led me to the truth. Once I'd come to this I eventually after a great deal of sadness and loneliness, happily found I was not at all alone but in the majority of orthodox Christians, many of whom have shown me through good old common sense we can still come to the same conclusions. But Jeff Scripture is indeed the bases of my conclusions, and though I cant point to a single verse and not only the entire counsel of 1 Cor where Paul is saying only not in so many words to the Corinthians to, shut up and grow up, where it comes to at least one of the gifts, but to the whole Bible. Jeff there are so many men of God that I so admire that have also come to these same conclusions that I would be wroth to even try to count them, men who have demonstrated to me that they are being led by the Holy Spirit. Take it for whatever you think its worth my friend I've nothing else to add. By the way Jeff Im as staunch a defender of sola Scriptura as just about anyone here on this forum and I think you know that, if you don't may I inform you it is indeed so. So I vehemently agree that we should indeed be holding onto truth shown to us through His Holy Word. God bless John |
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5 | Am I ignorant | 1 Cor 12:1 | jlhetrick | 211090 | ||
Brother John- thanks for sharing that. Yes, I'm very familiar with your reliance on Scripture as the only sure foundation for truth; hope I didn't come across as questioning that in principal. That was, in part, why I commented on your reference to the rising and setting of the sun. I believe that reference was out of context of the thread. The continuation or cessation of any of the gifts is not an essential issue that should be allowed to devide us. The point of my involvement with the thread is, if nothing else, to point toward the falty approach to doctrine that some have in believing something they can not justify by the Scriptures. Truth is, I have believed in the cessation of the so-called miracle gifts for as long as I can remember knowing of them. I'm a bit embarrassed to say, but it's the truth nonetheless, that I hadn't done the work myself. I'm sure that's true of much of what I believe since I have on more than one occassion had my doctrine adjusted by Scripture, some times very much changed. Once we get into it for ourselves, doing the actual work I mean, it may involve some unlearning. I have people very close to me on both sides of the issue. I have had, in addition to yourself, people proclaim the Spirit having revealed the truth to them while at the same time saying they can't point specifically to Scripture in support. I can't help but be wary of that. So when I see any declare so definately something they either can not or will not support Scripturally, I believe it a fair position to take to request they attempt to. You will agree that some are well equipped to quote others to justify their position while not always so prepaired to quote Scripture to do so. If nothing else, perhaps we are all encouraged to more rightly devide the Word of Truth. God bless and thanks for working with me. Jeff |
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