Results 1 - 11 of 11
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Am I ignorant | 1 Cor 12:1 | DocTrinsograce | 210972 | ||
Dear Tim, If I understand your advice rightly, if criteria 1 through 4 are met... and if God has already told them... then a person may have confidence that this supernatural revelation is of divine origin? Are you really ready to encourage people to "take a leap of faith" into such things? George Whitfield admonished John Wesley -- regarding the "Lakeland Outpouring Manifestitaions" -- that any such encouragement might "...take people from the written word, and make them depend on visions, convulsions, etc. more than on the promises and precepts of the gospel." Ouch. Might we, instead, encourage the sheep to take the safer, surer, saner path: encouraging folks to deeply love the Word of God and depend on it... to regard other things with a high degree of suspicion. That way, they will not neglect what God has certainly said (Deuteronomy 8:3), nor presume to put words in His mouth (Jeremiah 28:15). In Him, Doc http://www.puritansermons.com/watson/watson2.htm |
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2 | Am I ignorant | 1 Cor 12:1 | Morant61 | 211008 | ||
Greetings Doc! Sorry that I could not respond earlier my friend! I have been busy and when I received the e-mail notice, the forum was down. Rather than enter into a lengthy debate, allow me to simply say this. I have read this thread and the arguments made concerning the supposed cessation of Spiritual gifts. Scripture certainly does say that they WILL end, but it does not say that they HAVE ended. My position is that the gifts of the Spirit are just as valid today as they have ever been, in fact, they may be more needed today than they were in the first century. The 'leap of faith' was in reference to stepping out in faith and obeying what the Spirit is telling someone to do, not to trusting something other than Scripture. In my view, the argument that the gifts have ceased is a worst case example of eisgesis and arguments from silence. An entire doctrine is built upon something that Scripture never once says. So, we will probably never agree on yet another issue. ;-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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3 | Am I ignorant | 1 Cor 12:1 | DocTrinsograce | 211015 | ||
Hi, Tim... Well, when we see withered hands restored before our eyes, teleportation of evangelists, men blind from birth made to see, the dead raised, etc. etc. etc. perhaps there will be some small glimmer of validation to these fringe doctrines. Continuationism is like moral perfectionism: These teachings become utterly moot if the practices they espouse as normative are never really attained to the churches -- without, at least, redefining terms, misdirection, unverifiability, etc., etc. Agreement is pretty easy, Tim. Our faith is not based on cunningly devised fables. On the contrary, Christianity is observable. This stuff above should be eminently observable. After all, an invisible, sign gift wouldn't make much sense. In Him, Doc PS Just in case that prophetic word thing is still extant, we need to get busy. Since we live by EVERY word of God, we had better be compiling an exhaustive transcript of all those prophetic utterances. We need to gather everything God has said to those faith leaping fellows -- no matter where or when. We've got a lot of ground to cover! In Him, Doc |
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4 | Am I ignorant | 1 Cor 12:1 | Morant61 | 211021 | ||
Greetings Doc! I have personally seen a man born blind healed by God. I have personally seen broken bones healed by God. I have personally been given words of knowledge about things that I could not have possibly known. I certainly would have a hard time describing the gifts that the Holy Spirit distributes as He wills as fables or fringe doctrines. :-( Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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5 | Am I ignorant | 1 Cor 12:1 | stjohn | 211024 | ||
Allow me to jump in here if I may please? Tim, no one has said that God cannot or does not perform miracles. But He does not give the gift of performing those miracles to individuals today as He did in the early Church. If you think you know someone who can do these things, I think they can be used at their local hospital or emergency-room. The evidence is overwhelming that the kind if stuff we see performed by "individuals" who claim to be healers, is a ridiculous sham compared to what the Prophets, Jesus, and the Apostles did. You would do very well indeed to, steer clear of them and, their false teachings, and stick to the Word of God, that has the power to save, without any help from assinine charlatans! God bless John |
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6 | Am I ignorant | 1 Cor 12:1 | Morant61 | 211063 | ||
Greetings John! You are always welcome to jump in my friend! :-) Allow me to make a couple of points in response. 1) First of all, no one has discussed anything about faith healers or false teachers. The question being discussed is what the Bible says about Spiritual gifts. Nothing I believe about Spiritual gifts has come from any false teacher. It is based only on what Scripture has to say about them. 2) You claim that God does not give these gifts to people today like He did in the early Church. Which verse in the Bible says that? Now, I want an actual Scripture reference, not an argument from silence. :-) Of course, I already know that there is no such verse. Unfortunately, because of false teachings and abuses over the years, we have lost out on the 'gifts of grace' that the Holy Spirit distributes as He wills. We get so hung up on tongues that we forget that the 'gifts' of God are limitless. There certainly are abuses and false teachings about spiritual gifts that need to be addressed. However, we have thrown the baby out with the bathwater and simply made the pronouncement, without Scriptural support, that the gifts are no longer for today. Are faith, giving, service, teaching, encouragement, and leadership no longer for today? Yet, Rom. 12 lists them as 'charismata' or 'spiritual gifts'. All of the spiritual gifts are given by the Holy Spirit to enable us to administer God's grace (1 Peter 4:10). All of them have their proper place in the life of the church. Even when the gift of tongues was being misused by the Corinthians, Paul said "forbid not speaking in tongues" (1 Cor. 14:39). Even it had its proper role in the life of the church. Now, on the basis on an unsupported claim that spiritual gifts are no longer given, we are implying that those who believe that they are still available do not believe in the authority of Scripture. Scripture lists many gifts. Scripture provides rules for their proper use. Scripture never once says that they were only for the 1st century or that they have been done away with. If you can show me otherwise, I would be happy to listen. Otherwise, I'll stick with what Scripture actually says. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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7 | Am I ignorant | 1 Cor 12:1 | jlhetrick | 211073 | ||
Brother Tim- After having read, carefully, the entire thread here I have the following observation. At this point, I can only view your position as being better supported by Scripture than those who believe any of the gifts of the Spirit have ceased. The absence of Scriptural support to prove, or really even suggest, that any gift HAS ceased is either not there or no one has pointed to it. I'm reminded of the very prudent warning to NEVER establish one's doctrine from a single verse or passage, yet, I'm not finding or being pointed to a SINGLE verse that confirms (or again even suggests) that any of the gifts have been ceased as of yet. Still, some, many do believe of the cessation of some gifts though I am not sure why only some (including tongues and healing) have been singled out to have ceased. I'm left with the questionS I had abandoned some time ago. Are the gifts of the Spirit still available to the Chruch today or have they ceased? If they have ceased, where does it say so in Scripture? If Scripture doesn't say so then why would we believe it. If they have not ceased what has caused so many to believe they have? Fortunately for me, I have learned not to allow these things to cause great distress. Like you, I will simply stick with what Scripture says. I'm always willing (even eager) to have Scripture change my position on anything when I'm wrong. On this issue I'm afraid I have to start, literally, from scratch. I've believed one way based on rational arguments for years without having done the work of fully investigating the Scriptures for myself. In this early stage of doing so, I'm not yet finding Scripture to support that any of the gifts have ceased. We should all fear to believe it either way unless we are sure of the truth. If they have in fact ceased, to believe and practice otherwise would be counterfeit. If they have not ceased, to deny them would be to deny Scripture as well as the true work of the Spirit in the Church. God bless, Jeff |
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8 | Am I ignorant | 1 Cor 12:1 | stjohn | 211074 | ||
Dear Jeff, Scripture say at least 51 times that the Sun rises or sets though we know full well that it does not do anything of the kind. So I would contend that just because we don't see specific verses that say certain gifts are no longer in use as they are no longer needed, we can still use common sense or wisdom to see that historically these things are indeed true. At least we know that some of the gifts are still needed, wisdom, being one of them. I believe your reference to believing rational arguments should be held onto. there is nothing wrong with using our noodles. :-) God bless John |
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9 | Am I ignorant | 1 Cor 12:1 | jlhetrick | 211075 | ||
John- I believe my argument at this point is that it does not appear to be a use of common sense at all, to have impressed upon our noodles something that isn't supported by Scripture (either side) simply because the argument seems rational. If you mean to suggest that common sense in absence of Scriptural truth is somehow a trumping card I fear you're not only not using your noodle, but maybe drifting even further into error. To make the argument that Scripture says an untruth (as in your referencing the rising and setting of the sun) is as far from attention to context as we might arrive at my friend. There is a rather big word that I can't bring to recall at this moment that deals with this... it involves the use of language, sometimes figuratively, to explain something in a way that makes sense to the hearer. Some writers of Scripture choosing to do this in referring to thte rising and setting of the sun just doesn't fit into this debate. So when I speak of rational arguments, I'm not at all intending to suggest that having something impressed upon our noodle through good sounding arguments should cause us to arrive at a conclusion. I do mean, as I have always held, that we arrive at no final conclusion that Scripture does not. That, my friend, is what we should both be holding on to. God bless, Jeff |
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10 | Am I ignorant | 1 Cor 12:1 | stjohn | 211082 | ||
Jeff, the only thing I can say is that I was first involved as a new Christian in a Church that taught that all the gifts were still available, I had no other doctrine to go on, but something just wasn't right. Only after many, many months on my face in prayer and in His book in prayer did I come to the conclusions that I have come to. Please believe me friend, it tore me apart, because I so loved these people and still do, but It was NOT the teaching of man nor common sense but the Holy Spirit that led me to the truth. Once I'd come to this I eventually after a great deal of sadness and loneliness, happily found I was not at all alone but in the majority of orthodox Christians, many of whom have shown me through good old common sense we can still come to the same conclusions. But Jeff Scripture is indeed the bases of my conclusions, and though I cant point to a single verse and not only the entire counsel of 1 Cor where Paul is saying only not in so many words to the Corinthians to, shut up and grow up, where it comes to at least one of the gifts, but to the whole Bible. Jeff there are so many men of God that I so admire that have also come to these same conclusions that I would be wroth to even try to count them, men who have demonstrated to me that they are being led by the Holy Spirit. Take it for whatever you think its worth my friend I've nothing else to add. By the way Jeff Im as staunch a defender of sola Scriptura as just about anyone here on this forum and I think you know that, if you don't may I inform you it is indeed so. So I vehemently agree that we should indeed be holding onto truth shown to us through His Holy Word. God bless John |
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11 | Am I ignorant | 1 Cor 12:1 | jlhetrick | 211090 | ||
Brother John- thanks for sharing that. Yes, I'm very familiar with your reliance on Scripture as the only sure foundation for truth; hope I didn't come across as questioning that in principal. That was, in part, why I commented on your reference to the rising and setting of the sun. I believe that reference was out of context of the thread. The continuation or cessation of any of the gifts is not an essential issue that should be allowed to devide us. The point of my involvement with the thread is, if nothing else, to point toward the falty approach to doctrine that some have in believing something they can not justify by the Scriptures. Truth is, I have believed in the cessation of the so-called miracle gifts for as long as I can remember knowing of them. I'm a bit embarrassed to say, but it's the truth nonetheless, that I hadn't done the work myself. I'm sure that's true of much of what I believe since I have on more than one occassion had my doctrine adjusted by Scripture, some times very much changed. Once we get into it for ourselves, doing the actual work I mean, it may involve some unlearning. I have people very close to me on both sides of the issue. I have had, in addition to yourself, people proclaim the Spirit having revealed the truth to them while at the same time saying they can't point specifically to Scripture in support. I can't help but be wary of that. So when I see any declare so definately something they either can not or will not support Scripturally, I believe it a fair position to take to request they attempt to. You will agree that some are well equipped to quote others to justify their position while not always so prepaired to quote Scripture to do so. If nothing else, perhaps we are all encouraged to more rightly devide the Word of Truth. God bless and thanks for working with me. Jeff |
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