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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Am I ignorant | 1 Cor 12:1 | DocTrinsograce | 210972 | ||
Dear Tim, If I understand your advice rightly, if criteria 1 through 4 are met... and if God has already told them... then a person may have confidence that this supernatural revelation is of divine origin? Are you really ready to encourage people to "take a leap of faith" into such things? George Whitfield admonished John Wesley -- regarding the "Lakeland Outpouring Manifestitaions" -- that any such encouragement might "...take people from the written word, and make them depend on visions, convulsions, etc. more than on the promises and precepts of the gospel." Ouch. Might we, instead, encourage the sheep to take the safer, surer, saner path: encouraging folks to deeply love the Word of God and depend on it... to regard other things with a high degree of suspicion. That way, they will not neglect what God has certainly said (Deuteronomy 8:3), nor presume to put words in His mouth (Jeremiah 28:15). In Him, Doc http://www.puritansermons.com/watson/watson2.htm |
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2 | Am I ignorant | 1 Cor 12:1 | BMyers | 210973 | ||
Doc, On this point, I think I have to disagree with you. I do believe that the spiritual gifts in the Bible are alive and still should be in practice today. Many today have come to abuse these gifts and falsely use them. I think you are correct, when anything is being presented as a message from God, it has to be put through the highest degree of discernment. If any part of the message doesn't line up with the Biblical truth, it should be disregarded. Does God still speak to His people today? YES! Will He ever say anything contrary to His Word? NO! Our dependency should be on Christ, not the miracles or gifts, these are blessings. Brad |
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3 | Am I ignorant | 1 Cor 12:1 | DocTrinsograce | 210978 | ||
Hi, Brad... I don't think I denied the existence of spiritual gifts. I've never heard of a Cessationist who did. Of course, I've never found a Continuationist give a sound treatment of the subject from Scripture -- I've read a lot, but haven't found one yet. Finally, I certainly didn't say that God doesn't speak to His people. That would be an utter repudiation of sola Scriptura (Hebrews 1:1-2). Nevertheless, see also Zechariah 13. Of course, if one is going to put words into someone's mouth, it would certainly be safer to put them into mine (Ezekiel 22:28)! :-) In Him, Doc |
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4 | Am I ignorant | 1 Cor 12:1 | BMyers | 210980 | ||
Hey Doc, I’m not sure what words, I was trying to put into your mouth, but I was responding to your statements that you had made. “I think you are correct, when anything is being presented as a message from God, it has to be put through the highest degree of discernment. If any part of the message doesn't line up with the Biblical truth, it should be disregarded.” Was in reference to your statement: “Might we, instead, encourage the sheep to take the safer, surer, saner path: encouraging folks to deeply love the Word of God and depend on it... to regard other things with a high degree of suspicion. That way, they will not neglect what God has certainly said (Deuteronomy 8:3), nor presume to put words in His mouth (Jeremiah 28:15).” My response to the quote from Whitfield was this: “On this point, I think I have to disagree with you. I do believe that the spiritual gifts in the Bible are alive and still should be in practice today. Many today have come to abuse these gifts and falsely use them.” “George Whitfield admonished John Wesley -- regarding the "Lakeland Outpouring Manifestitaions" -- that any such encouragement might "...take people from the written word, and make them depend on visions, convulsions, etc. more than on the promises and precepts of the gospel." Ouch.” My purpose wasn’t to put any words in your mouth and if it came across that away, I apologize. I was doing my best to express a different view than yours. My understanding is that Cessationist believes in the gifts, I wasn’t trying to say that they did not believe in the gifts. Yet to my limited understanding, Cessationist believe that the gifts ended (I believe that is based off 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 and the belief that the Bible is the fulfillment of this). I personnally believe, as I think the correct title for it is Continuationist as you pointed out, is the gifts are still active and alive today. Once again I apologize if I created any confusion or appeared to try to put words in your mouth, that wasn’t my goal. I have enough words on my own without trying to fill up someone else’s mouth. Brad |
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5 | Am I ignorant | 1 Cor 12:1 | DocTrinsograce | 210982 | ||
Hi, Brad... In theology -- orthodox Christian theology, anyway -- the definitions of the terms we use are as precise as we can make them. By Cessationism we mean that the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit (e.g., tongues, healing, prophetic revelation, etc.) were particular to the Apostolic Era (i.e., during the lives of the apostles). These sign gifts were uniquely used by the Holy Spirit in the establishment of the primitive church. Their passing preceded the closing of the canon of Scripture. By contrast, Continuationism holds that these miraculous gifts are still available to believers of our day, even to the extent of being normative. The latter view, of course, contravenes the doctrine of sola Scriptura. If for that reason alone, we'd do well to render proper deference to our gracious host, in eschewing its public avocation on the forum. In Him, Doc |
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6 | Am I ignorant | 1 Cor 12:1 | BMyers | 210983 | ||
Doc, I don't believe that Continuationism is anti-sola scripture. (If I'm understanding the definition of it is correct, remember, I'm just a common man, I haven't had years of schooling (thank the Lord for spell check).) I do believe that the gifts are still very active and available to all Christians. And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams; even on my male servants and female servants in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy. And I will show wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below, blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke; the sun shall be turned to darkness and the moon to blood, before the day of the Lord comes, the great and magnificent day. And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Acts 2:14-21 I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this point. Thank you for showing me the other view point. Brad |
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7 | Am I ignorant | 1 Cor 12:1 | stjohn | 210984 | ||
--"Cessationism is the view that the “miracle gifts” of tongues and healing have ceased—that the end of the apostolic age brought about a cessation of the miracles associated with that age. Most cessationists believe that, while God can and still does perform miracles today, the Holy Spirit no longer uses individuals to perform miraculous signs. The biblical record shows that miracles occurred during particular periods for the specific purpose of authenticating a new message from God. Moses was enabled to perform miracles to authenticate his ministry before Pharaoh (Exodus 4:1-8); Elijah was given miracles to authenticate his ministry before Ahab (1 Kings 17:1; 18:24); the apostles were given miracles to authenticate their ministry before Israel (Acts 4:10, 16). Jesus’ ministry was also marked by miracles, which the Apostle John calls “signs” (John 2:11). John’s point is that the miracles were proofs of the authenticity of Jesus’ message. After Jesus’ resurrection, as the Church was being established and the New Testament was being written, the apostles demonstrated “signs” such as tongues and the power to heal. “Tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not” (1 Corinthians 14:22, a verse that plainly says the gift was never intended to edify the church). The Apostle Paul predicted that the gift of tongues would cease (1 Corinthians 13:8). Here are 6 proofs that it has already ceased: 1) The apostles, through whom tongues came, were unique in the history of the church. Once their ministry was accomplished, the need for authenticating signs ceased to exist. 2) The miracle (or sign) gifts are only mentioned in the earliest Epistles, such as 1 Corinthians. Later books, such as Ephesians and Romans, contain detailed passages on the gifts of the Spirit, but the miracle gifts are not mentioned (although Romans does mention the gift of prophecy, the Greek word translated prophecy mean “speaking forth” and does not necessarily include prediction of the future). 3) The gift of tongues was a sign to unbelieving Israel that God’s salvation was now available to other nations. See 1 Corinthians 14:21-22 and Isaiah 28:11-12. 4) Tongues was an inferior gift to prophecy (preaching). Preaching the Word of God edifies believers, whereas tongues does not. Believers are told to seek prophesying over speaking in tongues (1 Corinthians 14:1-3). 5) History indicates that tongues did cease. Tongues are not mentioned at all by the Post-Apostolic Fathers. Other writers such as Justin Martyr, Origen, Chrysostom, and Augustine considered tongues something that happened only in the earliest days of the Church. 6) Current observation confirms that the miracle of tongues has ceased. If the gift were still available today, there would be no need for missionaries to attend language school. Missionaries would be able to travel to any country and speak any language fluently, just as the apostles were able to speak in Acts 2.As for the miracle gift of healing, we see in Scripture that healing was associated with the ministry of Jesus and the apostles (Luke 9:1-2). And we see that as the era of the apostles drew to a close, healing, like tongues, became less frequent. The Apostle Paul, who raised Eutychus from the dead (Acts 20:9-12), did not heal Epaphroditus (Philippians 2:25-27), Trophimus (2 Timothy 4:20), Timothy (1 Timothy 5:23), or even himself (2 Corinthians 12:7-9). The reasons for Paul’s “failures to heal” are 1) the gift was never intended to make every Christian well, but to authenticate apostleship; and 2) the authority of the apostles had been sufficiently proved, making further miracles unnecessary. The reasons stated above are evidence that the sign gifts have ceased. According to 1 Corinthians 13:13-14:1, we would do well to “pursue love,” the greatest gift of all. If we are to desire gifts, we should desire to speak forth the Word of God, that all may be edified."-- From... http://www.gotquestions.org/cessationism.html Another Recommended Resource: Are Miraculous Gifts for Today - Four Views edited by Wayne Grudem. |
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8 | Am I ignorant | 1 Cor 12:1 | Morant61 | 211067 | ||
Greetings John! May I address the six "proofs"? 1) There are two problems with this "proof". First of all, the gift of tongues did not come from the apostles, but from the Holy Spirit. Secondly, there is not a single verse which states that some gifts would end with the Apostles. This is sheer speculation, not a proof of anything. 2) This 'proof', at best, is an argument from silence. The 'letters' of the New Testament are occasional documents. The only reason 'tongues' is mentioned in 1 Corinthians is because there was a problem with them at Corinth that needed to be addressed. Had the problem not existed, we might not have a single passage dealing with tongues. Regardless, arguing the fact that some books do not mention them does not proof that spiritual gifts have ceased. :-) 3) There is a lot of difference of opinion concerning 1 Cor. 14:21-22. It has been so difficult to interpret over the years that some have even argued that there is a textual error in the passage. Regardless, there is nothing in the passage that says 'tongues' will cease at the end of the Apostolic age. Again, this is a 'proof' of nothing. 4) This point really bothers me. Are we to argue that a gift that the Holy Spirit has given in somehow worthless? Paul certainly did argue that praise or message which are understood edify those who hear, while those which are not understood do no edify. However, no where does Paul use the term 'inferior'. In fact, he specially equates an interpreted tongue with prophecy (1 Cor. 14:5). This gift was certainly being abused, but it is still a gift of God. And, Paul specifically states that he wanted them to us this gift, as he himself did, and that no one was to forbid the use of this gift. Either way, this 'proof' proves nothing about gifts ceasing with the Apostles. Even if tongues were an 'inferior' gift, that says nothing about when it would cease. 5) This is an argument from silence. Even if they did cease historically, there is nothing in Scripture to indicate that they were supposed to cease. One could just as easily argue that the church did not use a gift that God wanted them to use, if we are going to argue from silence. :-) 6) There is so much to address in this point that I will just have to address a few. a) It is a presupposition that the gifts have ceased, not a fact. So, a 'proof' based upon a presupposition is nothing but a pretext. b) No where does Scripture states that 'healings' will cease with the apostles. This is another presupposition. I have a much higher standard for a 'proof' than a listing of presuppositions, circular arguments, and eisgesis. For instance, a single Scripture that states these gifts would end with the apostles would be nice. :-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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9 | Am I ignorant | 1 Cor 12:1 | stjohn | 211072 | ||
I happen to think that they are pretty good Tim, or I wouldn't have posted them. If you would like to address the proof's the "address" for that is, http://www.gotquestions.org/index.html But I doubt if you will get any further with them, then you did with me. |
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