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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Mercy's God's prerogative | Rom 9:15 | Reformer Joe | 13631 | ||
Tim: You wrote: "1) The thurst of the quotes about Jacob, Esau, and Pharoah, all have to do with God's sovereign right to use them in anyway He sees fit, since He is the potter. However, it never says anything about their individual salvation. In fact, all of the quotes about Jacob and Esau all refer to the nations involved." Well, the question raised was not about individual salvation, but whether God is required by His very nature to show mercy to all. In the case of Pharaoh, we are definitely talking about an individual who was not the object of God's mercy. And even if Paul intends his references to Jacob and Esau to refer to the Israelites and the Edomites (which is not a point I concede), these nations are still made up of individuals, so we still come down to individuals not receiving mercy (i.e. "being hated") from God. "2) Nowhere in chapter 9 does it say that the vessels are locked into the postion that they are in currently. Notice in Ephesians, that Paul says that they were all at one time 'vessels of wrath'. But, God had mercy on them." I think the term "prepared beforehand for destruction" implies exactly that these vessels serve the purpose God intended for them. Ephesians 2 refers to us as "formerly...children of wrath, even as the rest" rather than "vessels of wrath prepared beforehand for destruction." And the big difference is seen in the very next verse: "But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)" --Ephesians 2:4-5 It is clear that: a) we were all children of wrath b) now we (i.e. believers) are not c) Paul differentiates us from "the rest (i.e. the lost--v.3) d) the difference between the elect (Ephesians 1:4, 11) and the lost is God's rich mercy toward the elect It is not to hard to conclude by this epistle that the elect receive mercy that "the rest," those who will remain "children of wrath" do not receive. You continue: "3) Chapter 9 cannot be understood in isolation from chapter's 10 and 11. Both of these chapters stress that whoever calls will be saved and that even those, in chapter 11, who are not of the elect can be saved if they do not continue in their unbelief." The Reformed position agrees that whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. We are not in disagreement there. Where we disagree is that the Calvinist position holds that all those who will truly call on the Lord are precisely the ones that God has predestined, called, and regenerated (and no one else). Chapter 11 does not distinguish the elect from those who will be grafted back in. The ones who will be grafted back in are those whom God will regenerate. When Paul says that the condition is "if they do not continue in their unbelief," that is not contrary to Calvinism, either. If they do not continue in their unbelief, they will be the ones re-grafted and therefore among the elect. "4) Concerning "all Israel", I believe Paul is refering to the Spiritual Israel of 9:1-6 here. He specifically mentions the full number of Gentiles being brought in, and then he says, "Thus, all Israel will be saved." Agreed. --Joe! |
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2 | Mercy's God's prerogative | Rom 9:15 | Morant61 | 13645 | ||
Greetings Joe! Hey, we're doing better! We actually agreed on one point. :-) Concerning the other three points, let me address those when I deal with those sections of Romans in my new posts. That way, I wan't have to repeat myself. I do appreciate the interaction. Even though we may never see eye to eye on this issue, there isn't any reason we can't discuss it - and hopefully grow in our understanding of each other's position as well. I will try to remember to refer back to this post so I can address your points. If I forget, remind me. I don't want to dodge your points. I hope to have the next section on Rom. 9:10-16 posted later today. That section will deal with some of your points. Peace! Tim Moran |
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