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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Mercy's God's prerogative | Rom 9:15 | Reformer Joe | 13610 | ||
Tim: This view simply robs Romans 9 of any meaning whatsoever. The whole thrust of that chapter is that some are "vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory," (9:23) and others are "vessels of wrath prepared for destruction" (9:22). Notice that both sets of vessels were PREPARED for their purposes. There is no logical way of getting around that. In addition, we know that these vessels of mercy are not a particular nation or ethnic group, but rather believers from both Jew and Gentile ethnicities: "even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles." --Romans 9:24 Therefore, the clear reading of Romans 9 tells us: 1. God will have mercy upon whom he chooses (9:15). 2. We are the creation, and have no right to tell the Potter what we shall be used for (9:19-21). 3. Some were prepared for destruction (9:22) 4. Others were prepared for mercy and glory (9:23) 5. Those vessels prepared for mercy are not entire races, but subsets of races set apart for this purpose (9:24). Romans 11:32 does not say that God WILL show mercy to all men. Paul is referring here to the remnant of Israel that will be grafted back in, along with the Gentile "wild olive branches." If you think that "all" here necessarily means "everyone," look back at 11:26. Does his use of "all Israel" mean that every single descendent of Jacob WILL be saved? If you are consistent with the view you are putting forth with regard to 11:32, then by the same logic you must conclude that there will be universal salvation for every member of the twelve tribes. --Joe! |
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2 | Mercy's God's prerogative | Rom 9:15 | Morant61 | 13619 | ||
Greetings Joe! I agree with you that Rom. 11:32 does not say that God will have mercy on all men, but it does say that His actions have resulted in a situation where He may have mercy on all men. Concerning your other points, I will be posting some detailed examinations of chapters 9-11 from an Arminian perspective soon. However, let me address a couple of points very briefly. 1) The thurst of the quotes about Jacob, Esau, and Pharoah, all have to do with God's sovereign right to use them in anyway He sees fit, since He is the potter. However, it never says anything about their individual salvation. In fact, all of the quotes about Jacob and Esau all refer to the nations involved. 2) Nowhere in chapter 9 does it say that the vessels are locked into the postion that they are in currently. Notice in Ephesians, that Paul says that they were all at one time "vessels of wrath". But, God had mercy on them. 3) Chapter 9 cannot be understood in isolation from chapter's 10 and 11. Both of these chapters stress that whoever calls will be saved and that even those, in chapter 11, who are not of the elect can be saved if they do not continue in their unbelief. 4) Concerning "all Israel", I believe Paul is refering to the Spiritual Israel of 9:1-6 here. He specifically mentions the full number of Gentiles being brought in, and then he says, "Thus, all Israel will be saved. I have probably missed something, since I'm getting ready to leave for work. But, please respond to my more detailed posts as I work through chapters 9-11. That will allow us to discuss things in a lot more detail. The differences between our two views are hard to discuss in broad strokes. I look forward to interacting with you my friend! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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3 | Mercy's God's prerogative | Rom 9:15 | Reformer Joe | 13631 | ||
Tim: You wrote: "1) The thurst of the quotes about Jacob, Esau, and Pharoah, all have to do with God's sovereign right to use them in anyway He sees fit, since He is the potter. However, it never says anything about their individual salvation. In fact, all of the quotes about Jacob and Esau all refer to the nations involved." Well, the question raised was not about individual salvation, but whether God is required by His very nature to show mercy to all. In the case of Pharaoh, we are definitely talking about an individual who was not the object of God's mercy. And even if Paul intends his references to Jacob and Esau to refer to the Israelites and the Edomites (which is not a point I concede), these nations are still made up of individuals, so we still come down to individuals not receiving mercy (i.e. "being hated") from God. "2) Nowhere in chapter 9 does it say that the vessels are locked into the postion that they are in currently. Notice in Ephesians, that Paul says that they were all at one time 'vessels of wrath'. But, God had mercy on them." I think the term "prepared beforehand for destruction" implies exactly that these vessels serve the purpose God intended for them. Ephesians 2 refers to us as "formerly...children of wrath, even as the rest" rather than "vessels of wrath prepared beforehand for destruction." And the big difference is seen in the very next verse: "But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)" --Ephesians 2:4-5 It is clear that: a) we were all children of wrath b) now we (i.e. believers) are not c) Paul differentiates us from "the rest (i.e. the lost--v.3) d) the difference between the elect (Ephesians 1:4, 11) and the lost is God's rich mercy toward the elect It is not to hard to conclude by this epistle that the elect receive mercy that "the rest," those who will remain "children of wrath" do not receive. You continue: "3) Chapter 9 cannot be understood in isolation from chapter's 10 and 11. Both of these chapters stress that whoever calls will be saved and that even those, in chapter 11, who are not of the elect can be saved if they do not continue in their unbelief." The Reformed position agrees that whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. We are not in disagreement there. Where we disagree is that the Calvinist position holds that all those who will truly call on the Lord are precisely the ones that God has predestined, called, and regenerated (and no one else). Chapter 11 does not distinguish the elect from those who will be grafted back in. The ones who will be grafted back in are those whom God will regenerate. When Paul says that the condition is "if they do not continue in their unbelief," that is not contrary to Calvinism, either. If they do not continue in their unbelief, they will be the ones re-grafted and therefore among the elect. "4) Concerning "all Israel", I believe Paul is refering to the Spiritual Israel of 9:1-6 here. He specifically mentions the full number of Gentiles being brought in, and then he says, "Thus, all Israel will be saved." Agreed. --Joe! |
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4 | Mercy's God's prerogative | Rom 9:15 | Morant61 | 13645 | ||
Greetings Joe! Hey, we're doing better! We actually agreed on one point. :-) Concerning the other three points, let me address those when I deal with those sections of Romans in my new posts. That way, I wan't have to repeat myself. I do appreciate the interaction. Even though we may never see eye to eye on this issue, there isn't any reason we can't discuss it - and hopefully grow in our understanding of each other's position as well. I will try to remember to refer back to this post so I can address your points. If I forget, remind me. I don't want to dodge your points. I hope to have the next section on Rom. 9:10-16 posted later today. That section will deal with some of your points. Peace! Tim Moran |
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