Results 1 - 5 of 5
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Mercy Essential? | Rom 9:15 | Morant61 | 13621 | ||
Greetings Lionstrong! One thing we agree on is that God does not owe us mercy. However, interal pressure is based upon one's character. If I am a loving person, I will normally respond if a loving way. God's nature is perfect. Since He is a merciful God, I see no problem with saying that He will act with mercy. Rom. 11:32 is not framed as something external to God. It expresses His plan or purpose. You said: "Since we are all under sin–- that is, if some of us were not sinners God could not show some of us mercy, because we would not need it -- but since we’re all under sin, God may show mercy to anyone he wishes because there’s no one who is exempt from the need of it. “That he MAY show mercy…” But God does not wish to show mercy to all. And he hasn’t shown mercy to all. And that is his prerogative." I simply can't agree with this statement my friend. For several reasons: 1) The verse expresses God's purpose. 2) It specifically says that God has done this that "He may have mercy on them all." Yet, in your response, you change the word "all" to "some." Why? Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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2 | Mercy Essential? | Rom 9:15 | Lionstrong | 13624 | ||
Dear Tim, Yes, the verse expresses God’s purpose. God shut up all in disobedience that (for the purpose of) he MIGHT show mercy to all, not that he WOULD show mercy to all. And he hasn’t shown mercy to all, as is his sovereign choice. I did not change “all” to “some” in the verse. I said if one is not a sinner, he cannot be shown mercy, because he has no need of it. So, it is not possible for God to be able to show mercy to ALL unless ALL are sinners. If some are not sinners, he cannot show mercy to all if he so chooses. So in order for God to make to it possible to show mercy to all, he shut up all in disobedience. Although he did not and does not show mercy to all, he MAY do so, since all are shut up in disobedience. But, again, it is his prerogative to do so. The Lord’s abundant mercy is by the free choice of the goodness of his character, not internal necessity. He has to be good (internal necessity). He can be no other way. Because he’s good he can be merciful, and he has been abundantly so, but his goodness does not force (internal necessity) him to be merciful. He will have mercy upon whom he will have mercy. And on Judgement Day he will act with severe justice, not mercy. 2 Thess 1:5-11 "This is a plain indication of God's righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed--for our testimony to you was believed." Peace, Lionstrong |
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3 | Mercy Essential? | Rom 9:15 | Morant61 | 13648 | ||
Greetings Lionstrong! You still have one major problem with Rom. 11:32. The word "may" is not in the text as a seperate word. The last phrase literally reads, "...that the all he may have mercy." Here is your problem, the word "may" does not suggest God "may or may not" have mercy. It simply expresses that the purposed action is yet future. "That" tranlates 'hina' which expresses direct purpose. God did this so that He can do that. In this case, He bound all over to disobedience so that He could have mercy on them all. Here is the biggest problem I have with Calvinism. There are countless Scriptures which say that God will save all, that He died for all, that He draws all, that He desires all to be saved. Yet, Calvinist's have to explain everyone of those away by saying, "All only means some." So, let me challenge you (in a friendly manner) to show me one verse which clearly states in Scripture that Christ will only save some. I want one that is just as direct as "God desires all to be saved." The trick is that there is no such verse. There are many that are read that way because of the presuppositions of Calvinism, but there is not one that clearly says God will not save some. There are Scriptures that say that some will not accept. There are Scriptures that say some will continue in unbelief. I bring this up, because Rom. 11:32 is a perfect example. There is no condition in the verse. It simply says that God bound all over to disobedience that He may have mercy on them all. p.s. - Whether we ever agree or not, I appreciate your attitude. You have been a gentleman and a fine example of how two individuals with differing views can converse. Thanks! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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4 | Mercy Essential? | Rom 9:15 | Reformer Joe | 13677 | ||
While it is not necessary to pin a doctrine down to a single verse to show that Scripture teaches it (find me one that directly states that God eternally exists as a Trinity, for example), Romans 9:22-23 definitely indicates that some are vessels of wrath who are prepared by God for destruction. Who are these people, in light of the fact that the whole passage deals with who is shown mercy? I would hardly called "being prepared for destruction" an example of being a recipient of mercy! --Joe! |
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5 | Mercy Essential? | Rom 9:15 | Morant61 | 13684 | ||
Greetings Joe! Thanks for the response! I have two problems with your position. 1) There are other interpretations of Rom. 9:22-23 than the one you propose. I'll deal with this passage in more detail in my ongoing posts about Romans. But let me make a couple of short comments. The focus of chapter 9 is that God has extended His mercy to the Gentiles, while Israel (on a whole) is rejecting Him. Thus, the quotes from the OT are used to prove that God has a right to extend His mercy to whomever He wishes. The quotes from the Potter passage in the Old Testament deals with the fate of nations, not individuals. So, a quick summary of chapter 9, from my perspective, would be: God has every right to have mercy on the Gentiles (vessels of wrath). 2) While Romans 9 can be viewed in various ways, the clear statements of Scripture about God's intention to have mercy on all, desire to save all, ect... are not vague whatsoever. I'm not trying to be a smart-alex, but I have a problem with any "theory" that demands we change every verse which says "all" to "some". The reason I issued the challenge to show one verse that "clearly" states that God elects only certain individuals AND rejects the rest is because it simply doesn't exist. So, I have to choose between a possible interpretation of Romans 9 or a host of clear catergorical statements. Personally, I'll take the clear statements at face value. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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