Results 1 - 12 of 12
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Can we live life without sinning? | Rom 6:12 | Morant61 | 209322 | ||
Greetings John! The identity of the wretched man has always intrigued me. Those who believe that Paul is describing a believer, however, have a serious problem in that the description of the wretched man directly contradicts the description of believers in both chapters 6 and 8 of Romans. For instance, the wretched man is described in 7:14, 22, and 25 as being a 'slave to sin'. Yet, Rom. 6 says several times that believers are no longer slaves to sin. Indeed, Rom. 8:9 says, " You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ." Now, my question is simple, "Who can these two descriptions be reconciled if they both describe believers?" Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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2 | Can we live life without sinning? | Rom 6:12 | Lookn4ward2Heavn | 209469 | ||
If it is insisted that Rom 7 explains Paul’s experience as a believer, I would think one needs to be hard-pressed to explain how this experience as described is consistent with what the Bible affirms is the true state and experience of those who are “born again”. For example: (1) “…sin…produced in me all kinds of wrong desires” (8). (2) “…sin became alive and I died…” (3) “…sin…deceived me and through it I died.” (4) “…sin…produced death in me…” (5) “…I am unspiritual, sold into slavery to sin.” (6) “…sin lives in me…” (7) “...nothin good live in me.” (8) “…I want to do good, but I cannot…” (9) “…I do the very evil I do not want!” (10) "…sin…lives in me.” (11) “…evil is present with me.” (12) “…captive to the law of sin…” Note that in this verse, if it is understood as the apostle’s experience as a believer, Paul admits he is in a struggle with sin but also admits he losses that struggle because sin consistently and always (the only way to undestand it in view of the whole context) overcomes him. (13) “…I serve the law of sin.” Are we to understand that this is the expected and normal experience of believers, to be “unspiritual and sold into slavery to sin”? Is this what is meant by being under grace? Is Rom 7 what is meant by the “new creation” (2 Cor 5:21)? |
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3 | Can we live life without sinning? | Rom 6:12 | stjohn | 209474 | ||
ah.... NO! :-( 1 John 3:2 " Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as [YET] what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is." [CAPS and brackets for emphases] You see we are NOT perfect YET, though we no longer live in and for sin, and the Spirit of God that lives and dwells in us strives not to sin, and the difference between the two conditions is indeed light and dark, and this is the "new creation". We are nonetheless NOT perfect YET and we do fail! "But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit." 2 Cor 3:18 From day to day we strive to and come closer to perfection and Christ-likeness, but we are NOT there YET! God bless John |
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4 | Can we live life without sinning? | Rom 6:12 | Morant61 | 209508 | ||
Greetings John! You seem to be misunderstanding what Looking and myself have been saying about Rom. 6-8. No one made the claim that we are perfect. We simply made the claim, based upon the clear statement of Paul, that we are no longer slaves to sin. Did you sin in everything you did today? Of course not, you (as a mature believer in Christ) probably lived in obedience to Christ in most all that you did and thought today. Perhaps, you did sin in some way, but that was not the norm of your experience. That is all that we have been trying to say. We are no longer slaves to sin. We may, and probably will, yield to sin at times, but because of the work of Christ in us, we no longer have to sin. It is possible for us to obey Christ. We will not be perfect until glorification takes place. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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5 | Can we live life without sinning? | Rom 6:12 | stjohn | 209510 | ||
Dear Tim: Evidently we may be in agreement more than disagreement but just seem to stress different aspects of doctrine? So you are saying we don't have to sin, in the general sense of sin: which is a given really. But that there are depths of sin we don't grasp or are not particularly aware of; so we sin regardless of how hard we try in ourselves not to, because we don't understand it to the depth that God does? Of course thats a really short exposé; but basically; is that what you are saying? God bless John |
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6 | Can we live life without sinning? | Rom 6:12 | Morant61 | 209523 | ||
Greetings John! I apologize for not making myself more clear my friend! :-) I am saying that Christ has set us free from the power of sin. We can still sin, if we choose to do so. But, we can also choose not to sin. We are no longer slaves to sin. We are not perfect, since we are still frail and fallible human beings. But, we are truly free to live holy lives through the grace of Christ. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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7 | Can we live life without sinning? | Rom 6:12 | stjohn | 209531 | ||
Dear Tim: Well now that sounds a lot better. :-) I can pretty much agree with that simplified version. :-) But you go much deeper in your posts. :-( And I don't see where I misunderstood what you or our esteemed man of godly wisdom have been saying. Going over the posts of this thread I don't think I've missed anything. You see the thing that really bothers me Tim, is this slant that, man can do more for himself than what God is doing for us. Frankly, it sounds pious and insincere. I hope this doesn't offend, but that honesty is, how it looks to me. I'd rather give God ALL the credit then say that we can do anything. God dwelling in us is the only reason we are able to do anything at all that is good. And I guess I see that as being missing from what I've read in the posts of this thread. So please don't say I've misunderstood you my friend, because I do understand it, and it troubles me that you teach these things. It surprises me too, Tim, that you would aline with one who has such a worldly view of Scripture given the history of the production of this somewhat tumultuous postings, and tail chasing circular logic, since coming to this forum. And I see too that maybe you have some trouble with the fact that I don't give man any credit; and I guess that is why you feel the need to correct me in my theology? Well, thanks, but no thanks. :-) I'm doing just fine right were I am. Resting in the arms of Jesus. :-) Knowing that, "we are still frail and fallible human beings" that cant be trusted to be perfect, it's nice to know that Jesus can be relied on to impute righteousness to us. All that I am that may seem good, all that I know that may seem good, and anything in me that is good, is from God... You know Tim, I spent a long time looking at Churches from the outside. I can tell you for certain that the Church is under a microscope. If we don't think the world is watching; that is a huge mistake. And the world sees that the Church thinks it's better then them. This too is a very sad state of affairs; we are NOT better then them; we are just blessed. And we need to get off our Spiritual high horse, show a little humility, and gratefulness to God, by giving credit where credit is due. And stop all this nonsense of man being somehow able to do something on his own. Man-centeredness as opposed to God-centeredness. That's one of the very reasons that the world just doesn't believe Christians, because they can see so plainly the hypocrisy that dwells in so many Churches. This is something that, Finney, championed, by the way and it is something that is very wrong with the emerging Church. Very sad indeed-.. :-( Just my two cents. God bless John |
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8 | Can we live life without sinning? | Rom 6:12 | Morant61 | 209533 | ||
Greetings John! All I can say is, 'Wow, where did that come from?' Allow me to address a couple of points my friend! 1) You said that I go much deeper in my posts, but all I have said over and over again is exactly what Paul said, 'we are no longer slaves to sin'. You seem to be reading much more into what I have said. 2) What I thought you had missed is that I never said that Christians were perfect. Yet, you kept using that word. 3) Where did I say that we can do more for us than God can do for us? In fact, in my last post, I said, "But, we are truly free to live holy lives through the grace of Christ." It is only through the Holy Spirit that we are able to live holy lives (see Rom. 8 and Gal. 5). 4) I wasn't aware that I had aligned myself with anyone. :-) Looking was the first one who had responded to me who actually dealt with what Paul said in Rom. 6, so I commended him for a good post. 5) Where did I say that I was better than anyone my friend? Frankly, I don't understand the emotion that is coming from you my friend. All I have said is exactly what Scripture says, 'we are no longer slaves to sin.' All that I have taught, whether here on the forum or in our local congregation is that we are called to live holy lives, and that God in His grace sanctifies us and enables us to live holy. 6) Finney and the emerging church were never mentioned by me. :-( Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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9 | Can we live life without sinning? | Rom 6:12 | stjohn | 209553 | ||
Dear Tim: I been waying things in the balance: So I've been praying today on my response to you, and about apologies to you. Tim I don't want to take back what I said. But just to say, I'm sorry for coming on strong and looking like I'm being personal. That was not my intent. My intent was just to make an observation. Though it did seem like I may have been blaming you for these things, that wasn't my focus, though it may have looked like it. I know though I come across kinda strong sometimes, I continue to work on it with prayer and also paying attention to what I say. With God's help we can be sure I will continue to improve. :-) I am the youngest of eight Children, who solved problems with a lot of yelling and hitting. My mom and dad too... :-( I'm not blaming my circumstances, I know that is just an excuse. I don't have a high opinion of excuses, they are all lame! But Tim, If you think I'm bad now, you should have known me before I got saved! :-) I think what I said, must be said, but I said it, not so nice... :-( Sorry Tim, God bless John p.s. By the way Tim, though I agree with most of what you say; I still think you think you know who the "Wretched Man" is; but you just think you do. :-) |
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10 | Can we live life without sinning? | Rom 6:12 | Morant61 | 209556 | ||
Greetings John! No problem my friend! It probably won't be the last time I get yelled at. :-) Concerning your p.s., I would encourage you to demonstrate through Scripture what you think, or where you think I am wrong. My conclusion about the 'wretched man' is pretty simple. Either, Paul is writing about all unbelievers in general (which would not fit because all unbelievers do not love the Law of God), or Paul is writing about all believers (which would not fit what he says in chapters 6 and 8), or Paul is writing about a very specific situation. As a pharisee, he loved the law of God, but as an unbeliever, he was still a slave to sin. If anyone can give me a better explanation that does not ignore chapters 6 and 8, I would be glad to listen. :-) Regardless, I would love to see the actual text of Romans 6 and 8 addressed in a response. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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11 | Can we live life without sinning? | Rom 6:12 | stjohn | 209566 | ||
Hi Tim: I don't have time to go over all the Scriptures with you, (sorry Tim) so I will simply refer you to some helpful commentaries by men who, I'm sure, spent more time in the Scriptures then the two of us put together. These are only two, mind you, and there are many others that would tell you as well that, your exegeses is in error. Romans 7:24 "Ver. 24. O wretched man that I am,.... Not as considered in Christ, for as such he was a most happy man, being blessed with all spiritual blessings, and secure from all condemnation and wrath; nor with respect to his inward man, which was renewing day by day, and in which he enjoyed true spiritual peace and pleasure; nor with regard to his future state, of the happiness of which he had no doubt: he knew in whom he had believed; he was fully persuaded nothing could separate him from the love of God; and that when he had finished his course, he should have the crown of righteousness laid up for him: but this exclamation he made on account of the troubles he met with in his Christian race; and not so much on account of his reproaches, persecutions, and distresses for Christ's sake; though these were many and great, yet these did not move or much affect him, he rather took delight and pleasure in them; but on account of that continual combat between, the flesh and spirit in him; or by reason of that mass of corruption and body of sin he carried about with him; ranch such a complaint Isaiah makes, Isa 6:5, which in the Septuagint is, w talav egw, "O miserable I". This shows him to be, and to speak of himself as a regenerate man; since an unregenerate man feels no uneasiness upon that score, or makes any complaint of it, saying as here, who shall deliver me from the body of this death? or "this body of death"; by which some understand, this mortal body, or the body of flesh subject to death for sin; and suppose the apostle expresses his desire to quit it, to depart out of it, that he might enjoy an immortal life, being weary of the burden of this mortal body he carried about with him:"-- John Gill "Verses 23-25 This passage does not represent the apostle as one that walked after the flesh, but as one that had it greatly at heart, not to walk so. And if there are those who abuse this passage, as they also do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction, yet serious Christians find cause to bless God for having thus provided for their support and comfort. We are not, because of the abuse of such as are blinded by their own lusts, to find fault with the scripture, or any just and well warranted interpretation of it. And no man who is not engaged in this conflict, can clearly understand the meaning of these words, or rightly judge concerning this painful conflict, which led the apostle to bemoan himself as a wretched man, constrained to what he abhorred. He could not deliver himself; and this made him the more fervently thank God for the way of salvation revealed through Jesus Christ, which promised him, in the end, deliverance from this enemy. So then, says he, I myself, with my mind, my prevailing judgement, affections, and purposes, as a regenerate man, by Divine grace, serve and obey the law of God; but with the flesh, the carnal nature, the remains of depravity, I serve the law of sin, which wars against the law of my mind. Not serving it so as to live in it, or to allow it, but as unable to free himself from it, even in his very best state, and needing to look for help and deliverance out of himself. It is evident that he thanks God for Christ, as our deliverer, as our atonement and righteousness in himself, and not because of any holiness wrought in us." --Matthew Henry By the way Tim, I was not yelling, if I were yelling, IT WOULD HAVE LOOKED LIKE THIS !!!!! If you would like to read some more on this Tim, I'd be glad to dig around for you when I have more time. Right now I have been asked to go speak at a funeral. God bless John |
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12 | Can we live life without sinning? | Rom 6:12 | Morant61 | 209567 | ||
Greetings John! You are in my prayers as you minster to those at the funeral! When you have time, if you would like to address the Scripture themselves on this issue, I would be more than happy to do so. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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