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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | To be saved must we be baptised? | Acts 2:38 | disciplerami | 78064 | ||
Dear Tim, I don't think I'm missing the point, instead it may be you who are. The point is that the appositional phrase (parenthetical phrase, as you call it), refers to the same group mentioned in the previous or following phrase (in our case, the previous one). In Acts 2:38, you can't just 'take out' the command to be baptized (and still have the same meaning), because being baptized isn't the same thing as repenting. "Take out this parenthetical statement and the verse is perfectly clear." Yes, in Acts 2:8 the appositional phrase indicates that each individual was hearing. This is supremely important to our Acts 2:38 passage that commands two things: repentance and baptism. Those who were being commanded to repent were also (same PLURAL number of people, even with the singular verb for baptism) being commanded to be baptized. The conjunction KAI ties the two phrases together and forms the required action (of faith, mind you)for receiving forgiveness. You point out that in Acts 2:8 that there are no singular verbs connected to "each", but that doesn't matter. There is a singular verb connected in verse 3 of the same chapter! So your point is moot. 1 Corinthians 16:1,2 is another example. In verse 1, the church is commanded 'do ye also' (2 person plural), followed by 'let each of you [hekastos] 'lay aside' [titheito, 3rd singular). Point? The same plural number commanded to do ye also, are individually commanded to 'lay aside' (singular verb). In Acts 2:38, the argument that you have advanced is that the change in person breaks the connection (conjunction AND) between repentance and baptism: 'repent for the forgiveness of sins and be baptized later for a reason disassociated from salvation.' But this is not allowed. In 1 Cor 16:1,2 you can't disassociate 'each one of you lay aside' from the first plural command to 'do ye also'. Baptism's water has no saving power, but it is the place where God's grace saves. We've already concluded the causal relationship between repentance and forgiveness; it's not much of a leap to command someone to get in the water and 'wash away thy sins.' Have a good day. By the way, how was the group study? I had one too with some of the youth. My dining room table was lined with teens studying the Bible. Disciplerami |
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2 | To be saved must we be baptised? | Acts 2:38 | Morant61 | 78084 | ||
Greetings Disciplerami! Group went great! We have about 8 or 9 groups which meet weekly. I am the overall director of the groups and I also lead one on Tuesday nights. Concerning Acts 2:38, I'm not sure how much more I can say! :-) Allow me to try one more approach. The issue is not whether you can give a command to a group and then a command to individuals. This is perfectly acceptable. The issue in Acts 2:38 concerns the phrase 'for the forgiveness of your sins'. The grammatical point that I have been trying to explain is that this phrase cannot be connect to obedience to the command to 'be baptized'. It is a parenthetical statement which interrupts the main thought. Your example from 1 Cor. 16:1-2 still doesn't back your point. Verse one ends with 'this you (plural ) also do (plural)'. But, verse two says, 'let each (singular) of you lay aside (singular)'. This is grammatical. To compare to how you are interpreting Acts 2:38, it would have to say something like: "Let each (singular) of you lay aside (plural)'. The verbs and pronouns which refer back to 'each' in this verse all match 'each' in gender and number, as they should. Your approach to Acts 2:38 does not! I don't know how many other ways I can explain this! :-) The verbs, pronouns, clauses, ect..., associated with a singular subject must be singular as well. Therefore, 'for the forgiveness of your (plural) sins' in Acts 2:38 cannot be a result of 'being baptized (singular)'. I'm not sure what you mean about Acts 2:3. The last clause of the verse says, "and it rested (singular) upon each (singular) of them." The only plural in this clause is the pronoun 'of them'. But speaking of 'one' among many does not turn 'each' into plural. 'Each' is still singular and any verbs or pronouns which refer back to 'each' must also be singular. So, nothing in Acts 2:3 supports your interpretation of Acts 2:38. Have a great day my friend! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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3 | To be saved must we be baptised? | Acts 2:38 | disciplerami | 78092 | ||
The comparison between Acts 2:38 and 1 Corinthians 16:1,2: Acts 2:38 1 Cor 16:1,2 Repent ye (plural) "do you also" (plural) each one (singular) each one (singular) of you (humon,plural) of you (humon, plural) be baptized (3rd,single) lay aside (3rd,singular) Same construction in both. The same ones being told to 'do ye also' and individually be told to 'lay aside'. That is the entire point being made by Thayer when hekastos (each, every one) is used. It relates back to the plural used in the appositional phrase. You write: and it rested (singular) upon each (singular) of them." The only plural in this clause is the pronoun 'of them'. Exactly, just as in the subsentence of Acts 2:38, the only plural in it is the pronoun humon. Just as in Acts 2:3, The verb "sit/be baptized" and noun "each/each" are singular: but the pronouns in both are plural (humon). I have to run. Have a good day. Disciplerami |
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4 | To be saved must we be baptised? | Acts 2:38 | Morant61 | 78109 | ||
Greetings Disciplerami! Your analysis was okay as far as it went, but it didn't go far enough! :-) After 1 Cor. 16:2 introduces the subject 'each', what kind of verbs and pronouns are used to refer to the subject? Himself - singular. Lay aside - singular. Treasuring - singular. Prosper - singular. While, Acts 2:38 continues: 'for the remission of your (plural) sins and that you might receive (plural) the gift of the Holy Spirit.' If Acts 2:38 followed the pattern of Acts 2:3, all of the above plural verbs and pronouns would have been singular! Remember my friend, it is not the appositional phrase that is the problem. It is trying to tie the non-appositional part of the sentence grammatically to the appositional part. This is what is ungrammatical. The plural 'your' of 'your sins' cannot refer back to the singular 'each' of the appositional phrase. Thus, obedience to the individual command to 'be baptized' is not necessary to receive the promises at the end of Acts 2:38. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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5 | To be saved must we be baptised? | Acts 2:38 | disciplerami | 78199 | ||
Tim, You keep trying but you aren't making your case. When comparing 1 Corinthians 16:1,2, you carefully show that the verbs and pronouns are all singular, but why do you fail to mention the genetive plural pronoun, humon? Because you don't fail to mention that the same identical genetive plural pronoun exist in Acts 2:38. You carefully point it out in Acts 2:38, but you omit it from the list of verbs and pronouns in 1 Corinthians 16:2. Why is that? Does it not help your case? Next, you have stated an error in saying: "If Acts 2:38 followed the pattern of Acts 2:3, all of the above plural verbs and pronouns would have been singular!" Acts 2:3 has plural pronoun (autois) following the singular verb and HEKASTOS (each one). Perhaps you just missed that one. So all of the pronouns in Acts 2:38 DON'T have to be singular! to follow the construction of Acts 2:3. Secondly, the plural pronoun in Acts 2:38 in "the sins of YE" matches the plural pronoun in the phrase "be baptized each one of YE". The inspired writer makes the connection between baptism and forgiveness and every Bible translation accurately renders it so. You have made it very clear that Acts 2:38 should be understood to say "repent for the remission of sins" while disassociating baptism from the process. If you say that is the accurate grammatical rendering, then why isn't their one verse to back you up? Repentance and Baptism are necessary for receiving the promises stated at the end of the verse. Disciplerami |
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6 | To be saved must we be baptised? | Acts 2:38 | Morant61 | 78220 | ||
Greetings Disciplerami! Okay, last time! :-) In the clauses, 'each' is the subject. 'Of you' is basically an adjective defining 'each'. But, 'each' is the subject. From that point on, any verb which has 'each' as it's subject must be singular. Any pronoun which has 'each' as it's antecedent must be singular. The second 'of you' is modifying the object of the sentence. To grammatically match the subject (if indeed 'each' were the subject of this clause, which is what I have been denying) the pronoun 'of you' would have to be singular. I have tried patiently to explain the reasoning my friend. I have years of training in Greek and about 17 years of experience in actually translating Greek. So, I'm not just making this stuff up. Consider the other examples where 'each of you' is used. 1) Luke 13:15 - "The Lord answered him, ??You hypocrites! Doesn?t each of you on the Sabbath untie his ox or donkey from the stall and lead it out to give it water?" 'Each' is the subject, and it is modified by the pronoun 'of you' (plural). Notice however, that each pronoun after this, which has each as it's antecedent, is singular. The verse speaks of the 'ox of his'(singular), not the 'ox of yours' (plural). And, every single verb is plural. 2) 1 Cor. 1:12 - "What I mean is this: One of you says, ??I follow Paul?; another, ??I follow Apollos?; another, ??I follow Cephas?; still another, ??I follow Christ.?" This verses says that each (singular) said 'I' (singular), not 'We' (plural). 3) 1 Cor. 16:2 - "On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made." Same thing again, 'each' is the subject and all of the pronouns which have 'each' as their antecedent are singular, not plural. I appreciate the dialogue my friend, but I am not going to post anymore on this particular point. I have explained my point, shown the Greek rules of grammar which back it up, and demonstrated it from other examples in the New Testament. If you don't accept it, that is your choice! :-( Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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7 | To be saved must we be baptised? | Acts 2:38 | disciplerami | 78260 | ||
Tim, Let me see if I understand what you are saying, You write, "To grammatically match the subject (if indeed 'each' were the subject of this clause, which is what I have been denying) the pronoun 'of you' would have to be singular." If I understand your point, you are denying is that the pronoun, humon, which follows the adjective, hekastos, has to be singular if it is the subject of the clause 'let each be baptized'? Is that what you are saying? If I understand your point, then you are wrong. Thayer says, and I quote him again, "when it[HEKASTOS] denotes, 'individually, every one of many,' is often added appositively to nouns and pronouns and verbs in the plural number,' Commenting on 1 Cor 16:2, you say, "Same thing again, 'each' is the subject and all of the pronouns which have 'each' as their antecedent are singular, not plural." Wrong, the very next word following 'each' is a plural pronoun: HUMON. I don't know what you might come back with now, but I know you can't say "each" is not the antecedent of pronoun directly following it. That's just not allowable. I know you aren't going to tell how the rules of grammar don't allow the singular subject and plural pronoun to be connected because they don't agree. You aren't going to say that, are you? You can't because Thayer says it is used appositively with PLURAL nouns, PRONOUNS and verbs. In the Acts 2:38, to follow what you've suggested here would be to splice and splinter that second clause so as to make it unreadable: "baptisthetw hekastos humon." How does anyone follow Greek grammar by saying that the subject 'each/hekastos' is not the antecedent of the plural pronoun 'of YE/humon'? But you say it can't be because it isn't singular. In Acts 2:38 and 1 Cor.16:2, you cannot disassociate that plural pronoun from the antecedent subject "each." It really does seem to me that your theology is guiding your grammar. I have every reason to believe that you are a honest man, but you simply aren't being consistent. You deny the rule that Thayer lays out: singular subject 'each' is used along side plural pronouns (of YE/humon). Saved by Grace, 100 percent Disciplerami p.s. Iron sharpens iron, I'm grateful we could talk. |
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