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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Have I misunderstood your question? | John 6:56 | Morant61 | 4904 | ||
Hi Jim! John 14:23 is an excellent example of what I was saying. John 14:23 - Jesus replied, ‘‘If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. Clearly, Jesus is refering to two members of the Godhead in this verse. In fact, He refers to them both in the plural - 'we will come' and 'we will make our home'. This verse cannot be explained as two modes or offices of God. Thanks for your input! Tim Moran |
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2 | Have I misunderstood your question? | John 6:56 | RevC | 4938 | ||
Oneness approach to How can God pray and still be God? By definition, God in His omnipotence has no need to pray, and in His oneness has no other to whom He can pray. If the prayers of Jesus prove there are two persons in the Godhead, then one of those persons is subordinate to the other and therefore not fully or truly God. What, then, is the explanation of the prayers of Christ? It can only be that the human nature of Jesus prayed to the eternal Spirit of God. The divine nature did not need help; only the human nature did. As Jesus said at the Garden of Gethsemane, "The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak" (Matthew 26:41). Hebrews 5:7 makes it clear that Jesus needed to pray only during "the days of his flesh." During the prayer at Gethsemane, the human will submitted itself to the divine will. Through prayer His human nature learned to submit and be obedient to the Spirit of God (Philippians 2:8; Hebrews 5:7-8). This was not a struggle between two divine wills, but a struggle between the human and divine wills in Jesus. As a man Jesus submitted Himself to and received strength from the Spirit of God. Some may object to this explanation, contending that it means Jesus prayed to Himself. However, we must realize that, unlike any other human being, Jesus had two perfect and complete natures - humanity and divinity. What would be absurd or impossible for an ordinary man is not so strange with Jesus. We do not say Jesus prayed to Himself, for that incorrectly implies Jesus had only one nature like ordinary men. Rather, we say the human nature of Jesus prayed. The choice is simple. Either Jesus as God prayed to the Father or Jesus as man prayed to the Father. If the former were true, then we have a form of subordinationism or Arianism in which one person in the Godhead is inferior to, not co-equal with, another person in the Godhead. This contradicts the biblical concept of one God, the full deity of Jesus, and the omnipotence of God. If the second alternative is correct, and we believe that it is, then no distinction of persons in the Godhead exists. The only distinction is between humanity and divinity, not between God and God. |
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3 | Conflict between the two natures? | John 6:56 | Morant61 | 5005 | ||
Thank you for a thoughtful response! When I discuss or debate with someone, I am sincerely interested in interacting with them. Too often, those with differing views are unwilling to deal with the questions that others raise, and simply pile on more questions, without ever dealing with the issues that have been raised. We may never agree with one another, but we can share our reasons for our beliefs. The issue of prayer in an important one when it comes to understanding the differences between trinitarinism and modalism. You said, "By definition, God in His omnipotence has no need to pray, and in His oneness has no other to whom He can pray. If the prayers of Jesus prove there are two persons in the Godhead, then one of those persons is subordinate to the other and therefore not fully or truly God." Yet, in the incarnation, wasn't Jesus temporarily subordinate to the Father. In John 14:28, Jesus says that "...the Father is greater than I." Those who reject the Diety of Christ try to use this verse to deny that Jesus was fully God. We both agree that He was and is God. However, trinitarians believe that during the incarnation, Jesus was, as man, subordinate to the Father. Hence, it was legitimate for the Son to pray to the Father, while He was in the flesh. This fact does not deny the Deity of Christ, it only affirms both the fact of the incarnation and the reality of the prayer. Later, you wrote: "The choice is simple. Either Jesus as God prayed to the Father or Jesus as man prayed to the Father. If the former were true, then we have a form of subordinationism or Arianism in which one person in the Godhead is inferior to, not co-equal with, another person in the Godhead. This contradicts the biblical concept of one God, the full deity of Jesus, and the omnipotence of God. If the second alternative is correct, and we believe that it is, then no distinction of persons in the Godhead exists. The only distinction is between humanity and divinity, not between God and God." In your first alternative, I disagree with your definition of Arianism. Affirming that Jesus was subordinate to the Father during the incarnation is not the same as Arianism. Arianism taught that in terms of His essential essence, Christ was subordinate to the Father. Though we disagree, I appreciate a well thought out answer. My biggest problem with your response concerns the battle between the human and Divine wills of Christ. In my understanding of the nature of Christ, He was always fully aware of who He was. He was fully God and fully man. I don't see any evidence in Scripture that there ever was any kind of division or battle between these wills. Therefore, I don't accept that Jesus was praying to the Father, only as a human, not as God. Can you supply any evidence from Scripture that there was such a division between His nature's? I look forward to your reply! God Bless, Tim Moran |
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4 | Conflict between the two natures? | John 6:56 | sharp | 5088 | ||
The state of being a person requires individuality and distinction. Heb. 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;. Would the Diety have to learn obedience? Would the Diety fear and suffer? Would it not be the human nature? Christ was tempted by Satan after his baptism, was Satan trying to apeal to the Diety (which I do not feel Satan understood) or to the fully human nature? Remember Jesus was hungry after fasting forty days. Jesus prayed if it were possible he ask that the cup pass from him, nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt. Yes, Jesus knew exactly what was going to happen next, the flesh is the weak part being brought to full acceptance. The humanity was going to suffer, bleed, bear the weight of sin and die. God cannot die the body that was his temple could. The differance in Christ's humanity and our's was that he had no sin. We must submit our will to God's, Paul wrote about the struggle between our old nature and the new nature (which is the Spirit lead life) if we do as Paul and die daily (keep the old man down) since we do not become robots, we are always yielding, or should be, to God's will. Would the human nature of Christ just have been a pawn to his Diety? sharp |
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