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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | O.T. Israel salvation? | John 6:49 | charis | 36745 | ||
Dear Greg Martin, Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus! My point about Israel being 'baptized in the cloud and in the sea' were that they were saved out of Egypt, then 'cleansed' (baptized) by the water and the Spirit. Paul likens the Exodus, the cloud of the 'presence of God' and the miracle of the parting of the Red Sea to his (our) present-day salvation experience. If this can be interpreted as such, then ALL Israel was saved! But many (most, including Moses) were displeasing to God, and laid low (died) in the wilderness. Were they 'unsaved' as in 'never really saved' or did they lose their salvation? I, personally, think they were saved, but displeasing to God. Does this mean they went to hell? I don't think so. If they did, Moses would be included, wouldn't he? Yet I believe that Moses is saved. Now, if we accept that grace through faith was salvific in the Old Testament (like Abraham, though he made his own mistakes), then is this not similar to our present situation? Yet you seem to be saying that if a person claims salvation, but sins (doesn't have his heart right), then he was never saved to begin with. Is that right? Friend, I am well aware that there are abusers of grace, including some very well-know Biblical men. (interestingly, not too many unfaithful women! :-)) We of the present generation do not have a monopoly on sin or unfaithfulness. I have to ask, can a person have his heart right (enough) to get saved, but fall into a sinful lifestyle? Is he not still saved by grace? Or are we judged always by the 'state of our heart' immediately prior to death? I see this thread as leading to a situation that we are saved by grace through faith, but we are required to 'maintain' our faith through outward faithfulness. I cannot agree to this. The Bible tells me that God continues to love those who believed in Him, even if they fall into temptation or sin. Of course, God is well-pleased with those that are faithful to Him! And, He is displeased with those that are weak or unfaithful. But does He take back His grace? I don't think so. Blessings to you in Christ Jesus, charis |
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2 | O.T. Israel salvation? | John 6:49 | Greg Martin | 37331 | ||
charis, You ask "you seem to be saying that if a person claims salvation, but sins (doesn't have his heart right), then he was never saved to begin with. Is that right? No. The condition of the heart and attitude at that point of salvation is what matters. Our heart is not right several times and we sin several times. There is not a single person fathered by men who has not. So obviously this can not be a condition to prove that you've been saved or no one would have ever been saved. What I am saying is at that point when you ask Christ to come into your heart and rule your life, your heart has to mean it. I can say to my boss, I would love to take that project, and even complete it and excell at it, but not really like it. And when I said I would love to take it, not have meant that, but said it to get on his good side, or because I knew it was right. I can tithe faithfully but grumble as I write that check, 'Boy that sure is a chunk of money. That could pay some bills this month..." That would be Cain's attitude. God does not want this money. He can manufacture his own. He wants your heart. So instead one has to believe "Thank you, Lord, for *allowing* me to give this to You" But if we don't it has no bearing on our salvation, it means that that particular event was not right. Therefore, if this is the case at the moment one prays for salvation, that event is not right. He never takes back His grace. You can not lose salvation. |
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3 | O.T. Israel salvation? | John 6:49 | charis | 37819 | ||
Dear Greg Martin, Greetings in Jesus' name! My friend, you illustrate my point exactly! Only God knows the heart, so only God knows whether one is saved or not. We can try to point to a person's works (actions or inactions) and discern their 'position' in God's sight, but there is no accurate practical means for man to measure another's salvation. The only starting point we have for ascertaining someone's salvation is their own testimony, and according to your post, subsequent denial of Christ is not a measure of one's eternal situation. I agree with this position. I know of some that are not presently serving God, but at one time did confess Christ as Savior. In the same way that I trust Christ for my own salvation, even though I fall short, I will trust in His salvation for those not 'keeping up' their salvific works. To me, this is 'once saved, always saved.' All this said, God is sovereign! If He should choose to 'break His own rules' and take away salvation from those who were once saved, that is His business. I trust that this is a rare occurrence, and is completely in accord with His infinite wisdom and knowledge. This, IMHO, would satisfy the Scriptures that seem to speak of 'lost salvation.' In any case, we on earth, are not privy to any specific knowledge. Peace to you in Christ Jesus, charis |
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