Results 1 - 12 of 12
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | O.T. Israel salvation? | John 6:49 | charis | 35090 | ||
Dear zach†, Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus! My friend, I appreciate your thoughts on this important topic. I trust that we are not too far from one another, indeed closer than we may imagine! Let me preface my comments with this: I am no scholar, nor am I a deep thinker. Perhaps there was a time in my past that I sought for such monikers. Personally, I find the Bible, and Jesus Himself(!) a stumbling block to such endeavor. My humble attempt is to see the entire Gospel from a step back. I can never claim to see from God's perspective, but getting too close to either the 'words' of the Bible or to 'personal experience' seems to lead to a 'three-blind-men's-view-of-an-elephant' type of situation. My thoughts are that our salvation from hell and damnation are wholly dependent on God's love. Therefore your Point 1 is how I view my salvation. As to whether this love is to all mankind, or only for the elect, I don't know. The 'words' of the Bible could support either or both, as His grace is truly amazing, and beyond the full comprehension of mortal man. If asked to 'prove' my faith in His grace, I am at a loss. After almost one year participating in this forum, I have not seen either 'side' prove their 'point' either! :-) The sum total of the Word of God seems (to me) to say that God chose His people, Old Testament and New. On that I simply trust Him. Your Point 2 about relationships is not, IMHO, speaking of what we are saved *from,* but what we are saved *into.* Please do not misunderstand me! I am not speaking of a two-tier or multi-tiered salvation. In my thinking, our salvation from hell and damnation IS salvation. But after that entirely God-started-and-finished work is initiated, we are encouraged (NOT obligated) to serve our Savior and His church. The direction that I had hoped to go in my original question above was the situation of Israel after they were saved from Egypt. They (apparently ALL Israel) were chosen and led forth from captivity. But they did not serve God, and all but two died in the wilderness. Their relationship with God was far from good, but His grace and love continued 'for His name's sake.' Even those that wanted to return were not allowed, though rebellion was dealt with severely. In the present age, we are saved (from damnation) by God's love and grace. He desires that we serve Him, and encourages us to do so in His Word and in His church. This would be the New Testament 'Promised Land.' Even if we fall short, he will not send us back to where we came from. Some may try, and (very few) may actually succeed! I think that some may 'appear' to have forsaken God, but He is still gracious. But for all practical purposes, we are saved! The intricacies of how to go back to hell are beyond my comprehension or interest. Brother, I have no 'systematic theology' for this theory, this hope. It is just what I hold in my heart. I believe that the 'sum' of Scripture supports my path, and so far no other 'bent' answers this hope. Blessings and joy in Christ Jesus, charis |
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2 | O.T. Israel salvation? | John 6:49 | zach† | 35100 | ||
dear charis; Your well wriiten reply reflects your full confidence and trust in our Lord and Savior, and I too believe that we have more in common, especially in the essentials of our salvation. I think it may possibly be that in some of the non-essential's is where we have disagreements, and in these instances we each have liberty, but in all things charity. Once again it seems to me from the entire message of scripture, that God's agape love for all is unsurpassable, and unmatchable. God is love (agape) that is His nature. Again it seems to me that we have to distinguish God's love from the kind of love man is capable of. That is why in my previous post I stated that God's love is unconditional, and I think you agree with that, if I read you correctly. The second point I made was our reationship with him is conditional. Look at this verse: Jude 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. I don't believe that salvation is obtained by works, however I do believe that true saving faith will produce works which is the evidence of our salvation, for even James says that "faith without works is dead." James 2:20 So if Jude 21 says we are to keep ourselves in the love of God, does that not then speak of some sort of responsibility on each believers part to remain in close constant cleaving abiding relationship with Him who called us out of darkness into His marvelous light? With the love of Christ zach† |
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3 | O.T. Israel salvation? | John 6:49 | charis | 35134 | ||
Dear zach†, Greetings from Yokohama in the name of Jesus! Friend I hear you, and I am well aware that Jude, James and, depending on interpretation, several other writers of Scripture could be thought of as saying that we are responsible for finishing (maintaining to the end) our faith. However, the sum of Scripture speaks to my heart that we can never merit salvation from hell and damnation, only reward on earth and in heaven. To my way of thinking, salvation is not a reward, but a gift without price or mortgage. After this gift has been bestowed, I do believe that the Bible speaks of reward on earth for *faithfulness* (not faith). This reward is something that God desires to give, but He will not without our submission and sensitivity to His design and will. This reward is given to some in life, according to His will, and to all upon the final judgement. In death we are fully humbled, and eternal reward is given in God's perfect reckoning, all positive, no negative. (thus no tears or dissatisfaction in heaven, all questions are answered, all accounts are settled, His sovereignty and peace rule all!) So, in my estimation, the answer is, "No, we cannot claim any part in our salvation from hell and damnation." The difference between us appears to be that I segregate faith and faithfulness. I am well aware that my stance has holes in it! :-) I pray they are filled by grace. The alternative is to believe in one argument or another, but both seem to be human in nature, not of God. When one is a clear 'victor,' I may reconsider, and align myself. :-) (I'm not holding my breath!) In the meantime I will remain 'simple,' praying that His grace is sufficient for me. I have another 'thought,' and I don't know where to put it, so I will close with it. As a minister of the Gospel, and a shepherd of those that hope in Christ Jesus, I have not found a practical way to segregate those that are still 'of faith' and those that are 'fallen.' If 'manifest faith' is the measure, then many I pray for are lost. I know of many that have tasted of the heavenly gift, and then departed from serving Christ. Some have returned, some have not. I cannot find a clear passage that tells me to give up on people just because they are not in church. I mean this in a personal, individual sense. Truly, there may be 'general' Scriptures to this effect, but none that speak to my heart. Maybe I am too soft? :-) (those that have heard me preach would never accuse me of this!) Nonetheless, I will continue to believe that God still loves these 'wayward' brethren, at least until the Lord convinces me otherwise. Joy in Christ Jesus, charis |
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4 | O.T. Israel salvation? | John 6:49 | zach† | 35141 | ||
charis; Once again my brother in Christ, I feel compelled to continue this discussion. But this time using a slightly different approach. I begin by quoting from your last reply, because certain statements you posted seem to stand out. And this small one seems to contradict what I hear from you. Let me now quote you if I may. "This reward is something that God desires to give, but He will not without our submission" After reading that, I ask, when you say "not without our submission" that makes me believe that individuals must take some responsibility in the surrendering and yielding process. Your thoughts? To be brief I will finish with a quote on victory; "Victory is a by-product of obedience." (Jerry Bridges) Your thoughts In Christ zach† |
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5 | O.T. Israel salvation? | John 6:49 | charis | 35143 | ||
Dear zach†, Greetings from Japan in the name of the Lord Jesus! "After reading that, I ask, when you say "not without our submission" that makes me believe that individuals must take some responsibility in the surrendering and yielding process. Your thoughts?" My friend, my thoughts are simple, and without contradiction. (at least in this instance. :-)) Submission, surrender and yielding are all part of the sanctification process, and pleasing to God, perhaps to be rewarded. But not anything to do with our salvation from hell and damnation. As to victory, I do not agree with Jerry Bridges. If we consider 'Victory' to be victory over death and the grave, nothing we can do, even obedience, can gain it. Jesus alone holds this distinction. Peace in Christ Jesus, charis |
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6 | O.T. Israel salvation? | John 6:49 | zach† | 35145 | ||
charis; I don't totally disagree with you but still need to go yet another step further in my discussion with you if you don't mind. Look at the following portions of scripture: Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him. Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; 1Pet. 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth Don't these verses teach us something about the importance of our responsibility to obedience to the faith? Especially Heb. 5:9 I could use many other verses on this topic, but at this time won't. Even Jesus Himself said: "John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments." So to me that would seem to indicate that non-obedience would necessarily give evidence of our lack of reverance and love for the Lord. Do you see what I mean. And by the way: You didn't indicate this but I will still state the following. I have no intentions of trying to trick you or trap you with my questions. In His name zach† |
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7 | O.T. Israel salvation? | John 6:49 | charis | 35148 | ||
Dear zach†, Greetings in the name of Jesus! Friend, even if you did trap me with your questions, I could always plead stupidity or temporary insanity! :-) I do see what you mean. And I probably know most, if not all of the many other verses you could quote. I could also quote to you a good many verses that speak of the sovereignty of God and His graceful election, but I won't. :-) I strive to keep the commandments of Jesus, that I may show my love for Him. But neither my keeping them, nor my love for Jesus save me. "Don't these verses teach us something about the importance of our responsibility to obedience to the faith?" Yes, they do, and I pray that our obedience is noted. But I do not think that this obedience will save my soul. I sometimes think that there will be those that are sure their works were 'gold, silver and precious stones,' but on that day find that much was but 'wood, hay and stubble' in God's sight. They will be burned up, and he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. On the other hand, some that is considered trash by others, may be considered valuable in God's measure. Well, I must retire. It is late, and I am working 'double-shifts' these days. Oyasumi-nasai (Good Night) In Christ Jesus, charis |
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8 | O.T. Israel salvation? | John 6:49 | Greg Martin | 36564 | ||
Zach, Charis, Regarding your thinking about losing your salvation, This can not be done. Neither of you have the power to overcome God. (John 10:28,29) Now take the lesson of Abraham. Genesis 12:1 Now the LORD had said to Abram: "Get out of your country, From your family And from your father's house, To a land that I will show you. 2 I will make you a great nation; I will bless you And make your name great; And you shall be a blessing. 3 I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed." So God gave him the promise of land and a large family, and the Savior to come from his seed. But at the first sign of trouble, what did he do? 10 Now there was a famine in the land, and Abram went down to Egypt to dwell there, for the famine was severe in the land. 11And it came to pass, when he was close to entering Egypt, that he said to Sarai his wife, "Indeed I know that you are a woman of beautiful countenance. 12 Therefore it will happen, when the Egyptians see you, that they will say, "This is his wife'; and they will kill me, but they will let you live. 13 Please say you are my sister, that it may be well with me for your sake, and that I may live because of you." He left the land God gave him for a foreign land. He feared for his life even after God told him he would be the father of a large nation. He disobeyed. He lost faith. He bore false witness. Yet God saved him in spite of this because God will work his plan no matter how hard you try to foul it up! You do not have the power to thwart what God has put forward! Shame on both of you for your arrogance! You do not mean to be, I know. But how is it then that you doubt the power of God? Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the **power of God to salvation** for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. |
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9 | O.T. Israel salvation? | John 6:49 | charis | 36604 | ||
Dear Greg Martin, Greetings in the name of Jesus! Brother, with all due respect, I have to ask if you have read any of my posts at all. (?) I have been championing the sovereignty of God, the efficacy of faith and the assurance of the believer for some time on this forum. Please do not accuse me of trying to thwart God. Please explain where I doubt the power of God before you cry, "Shame on your arrogance!" Perhaps you have me confused with someone else? :-) Peace and joy in Christ Jesus, charis |
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10 | O.T. Israel salvation? | John 6:49 | Greg Martin | 36719 | ||
Yes, I know you've argued that you can't lose your salvation, but let me say a couple of things. First, that admonishment is not a condemnation. I think if you heard me think the way it was written you would have heard the tongue in my cheek as I wrote it! But I wrote it to make you think. Second, even though you argued the opposite of Zach (how do you type that cross symbol?), there were words of ambivalence in your posts: "Zach†, I am not a 5,4,3 or 2-point anything, so I have no absolute position to defend. :-) I can see your point about the possibility of losing salvation. " I can't. Not at all. But I apologize, if this was harsh. As I review the posts I see that it was really that one quote that influence me to address my comments to both of you. I was afraid you might be faltering in your direction and wished to prop you up. I guess it wouldn't be the first time I've gotten into trouble on a forum by not explaining myself adequately. I had thought about not addressing the post to you, but I left you on it just in case. So I apologize again, but I hope you took the opportunity of my error to do a self-check. We all need that from time to time. |
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11 | O.T. Israel salvation? | John 6:49 | charis | 36749 | ||
Dear Greg Martin, Greetings in Jesus' name! Trust me, my friend, I AM thinking! Even before your 'tongue-in-cheek admonishment.' :-) There are several ways to make the "†" symbol, bu the easiest is to copy-and-paste it into the post, just like you did! Greg, I am not being ambivalent at all. I am being honest enough to admit that the 'saved-by-faithfulness' team has a point. There ARE many Scriptures that seem to say that salvation can be lost. My stand is that it is 'nigh-impossible' to lose salvation, that for all intents and purposes our salvation is secure. On the other hand, your method of saying that, "We are absolutely saved, BUT if we act like we are unsaved then we were never really saved!" is a cop-out. You end up saying the exact same thing as the 'salvation-by-maintained-faithfulness' crowd. In fact, I think they are more honest in their judgement! At least they admit that they are making an earthly judgement on a heavenly decision. :-) Peace to you, my brother! I think my 'ambivalence' gives God all glory and sovereignty, gives the believer assurance that God is in control, yet makes room for God to alter His judgement if He sees fit! Why would God do this? I don't know, and honestly don't lose sleep over it! I preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the lost and the saved. I preach holiness, but not out of constant fear of hell (though that possibility exists! but 'once lost, always lost!'[?] 'one-shot grace!' [?]), but to please God! To me, pleasing God is a worthy (and holy!) endeavor, If you want to see and hear how I balance these things, you will have to come to Yokohama! :-) In Christ Jesus, charis |
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12 | O.T. Israel salvation? | John 6:49 | Greg Martin | 37326 | ||
charis, You said that I am saying "We are absolutely saved, BUT if we act like we are unsaved then we were never really saved!" and that this "is a cop-out" I am not saying that at all. A person can be saved and commit sin. As Paul says, when we sin grace abounds. His point is that our sin after salvation proves the great grace that it is. And then of course he adds that we should strive not to sin. If sinners were never saved, no one was ever saved! I am not saying that if someone continues in sin they never were saved. What I am saying is that some that said all the right words and went forward "just in case" or because "I've got nothing to lose (none of my friends are here..)" did not get saved. Their heart was not right and only in total humility and repentance can one be saved. Only God can make this judgement. None of us can ever know this about another person; Only them and God. To say that God can alter His judgement is to say He was wrong at first. This can not possibly be the case. All I can say about someone continuing in sin after being saved is that yes it can happen, but it generally would only happen with tears and repentance after each time. This does not mean they wouldn't continue, but I guarantee God will correct His children, and they will be in torment over it. (This of course ignores mental illness or brain damage, etc). So Once saved, it is permanent and no one can alter it. God did it and He is not ever wrong. Once saved, the Spirit convicts you and continues to witness Christ to you. So sin occurs with considerable anguish and torment. The result is a broken heart in repentance asking forgiveness and a clean heart, to remove the cursed sin. Only God knows whether a person is saved or not. If sin continues without such torment, it is likely that the saving never ocurred because the heart was never broken. The Spirit living in the believer will not allow sin without anguish. And finally, many good people with less sin than some saved, are also not saved because they have not utterly smashed their heart to give to Christ, after all, "they are a good person". |
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