Results 1 - 19 of 19
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | God's fair standards to judge evildoers | John 5:28 | EdB | 232591 | ||
Beja I evidently upset you and that was never my intention. I don't know what I did but I'm sorry that it upset you. That said I see Romans 1:18-32 addressing people that deny the existence of God. I think that is far different than acknowledging God but not knowing Jesus Christ. I could be wrong but I think there is a difference. Let us look at the question I was addressing. "There are two kinds of people: those who had a chance to hear Jesus' good news and those who didn't. Don't you think God will judge the latter by different standards rather than their decision of rejecting Jesus as Messiah when they never had a chance to hear about Jesus? As for your argument "before Jesus people are judged on whether they saw their righteousness in themselves or looked to a Messiah," not all but some religions looked to a Messiah for atonement of their sins, I think." I think this question is now including people groups that believe or fear God such as the Jew but have never heard of Jesus. Which I guess is possible in a closed modern Jewish family today. I said I don't know how God will judge them because I don't think the Scripture specifically speaks to the situation. However I did very clearly point out that Jesus did say he was the way and to come to the Father we must go through Him. If there is something wrong with that answer please explain it to me. And again I am sorry if I rubbed you the wrong way. |
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2 | God's fair standards to judge evildoers | John 5:28 | Beja | 232597 | ||
EdB, RESPONSE PART 2 Now, with regards to Romans chapter 1. I can think of nothing but to walk you through it. Romans 1:18 says, "the wrath of God is revealed against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth" Please note that beginning of this section is showing what the wrath of God is being displayed against. God is angry about men "who suppress the truth." Now it says that they do so in unrighteousness but the people who are the object of his wrath are those who "suppress the truth." Now Paul explains what he is talking about... Romans 1:19 and says, "BECAUSE that which is known about God is evident within them for God made it evident to them" So Paul begins to explain what he means by those who "suppress the truth" whom God is wrathful towards. He says concerning them that that which is known about God is evident within them. Now he will explain that statment. Please note the words beginning the verses evidencing each verse as the grounds for the previous one. Romans 1:20 "FOR since the creation of the world, His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made SO THAT THEY ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE" Now lets follow the chain links. God is angry at those who "suppress the turth." Why? Because that which is known about God is known to them. How? Because it is evident in creation to everyman without special revelation. So God makes himself known in creation. Men in their wickedness reject what is evident, and therefore God is angry. Now be careful because this is where I think you go wrong. They are not being judged on whether they reject Christ. Christ is not revealed from nature. A coming messiah is not revealed from nature. Simply certain turths, not all truths, about God our revealed from nature. And God is wrathful that sinful men have turned from those truths. What we are going to discover in this passage is that at the conclusion men are sufficiently guilty to be sent to hell having never heard of Christ. Now verse 21b where it declares them without excuse is a bit of a watershed moment in this passage. 21b declares them "without excuse." That is the point of what he has been saying so far. But note the starting word of verse 21 and you will see he is giving a second ground for why they are without excuse. So first they are without excuse because ENOUGH truth is evident that hey are accountable for it and second Paul is going to explain that the second grounds of their lack of excuse is how they handled what turth they were given. Romans 1:21b-23 "so that they are without excuse. FOR even though they knew God they did not honor him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise they became fools and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man, and of birds, and four footed animals, and crawling creatures." All right it says what about them? They have no excuse because... 1. They knew God and inspite of this... 2. They did not honor him, nor give thanks 3. They became futile in their speculations. In other words they ignored what was revealed by God about themselves, and began to imagine who and what God was from their own sinful imaginations. They did not deny that there was a God, they created their own versions of God. This is not about Atheism, it is about idolatry and false ideas of who God is. 4. They exchanged the truth revealed for an image in some other form, what that form was doesnt matter. So do you see what its saying? God's wrath is against all mankind who have not yet had written revelation brought to them and this wrath is just because they have sinned against the natural revelation which they have been given by producing their own false ideas of who God is. They are guilty enough for Hell...and they will be judged so by God. Paul is purposely locking those who have never heard the gospel up as guilty before God on this basis so that beginning in chapter three he can began declaring the gospel as their only hope. There is much more in Romans 1:18-32 but this is sufficient. In Christ, Beja |
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3 | God's fair standards to judge evildoers | John 5:28 | EdB | 232599 | ||
Beja Thank you for your excellent exposition of Romans 1:18-32. And I agree and I would like to add that even those that do know God and worship him are guilty of sin. Romans 3:23 (NASB) 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, So what keeps us from eternal damnation? Is it not the Blood of Jesus and our belief that he paid for our sins and accepting Him as our Lord and Savior and soon coming king? My view of Romans 1:18-32 is talking to person that claims to a be an atheist, saying there is no God and therefore refusing to worship God. To me that person is different than the Jew that loves God and worships him with all his heart. Yet that Jew unless he is in Christ has no way to atone or pay for his sin. His name is not written in the Lambs Book of Life and therefore according to Rev 20 he will be cast into the lake of fire. Now the question becomes what happens to the person who like the Jew dearly loves God, tries to live a righteous life and may even realize he can’t in himself and understands his need for a Messiah. But this person for whatever reason has never heard of Jesus Christ. Does God deal with him differently than the Jew that lived the same life but rejected Jesus? THAT IS THE QUESTION! I said I don’t know because to me this situation is never addressed by scripture. |
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4 | God's fair standards to judge evildoers | John 5:28 | Beja | 232604 | ||
EdB, I struggle with how to respond to you. You are bringing so many assumptions to the text that make it impossible for you to see things rightly. I just don't know how to systematicly address all of it. Everything you are saying so far outside the historical Christian view of so many things. Let me at least give a couple examples. You said, "I’m talking of the person that truly loves God but for whatever reason has never heard of Jesus Christ." You are first assuming a situation which scripture is categorically denying the existence of. That is the point of Romans 1, there is no such human being. Every person in the entire world through sinful depraved hearts has either out right rejected what is universally known about God, or they have altered it to suit their own notions of what they want God to be. The reason you can't see scripture addressing what happens to a God loving person in ignorance is because there is no such thing as a God loving person in ignorance. We love because he first loved us. Any true love we have towards God is first prompted by a true understanding of God's grace towards us. Now your objection to this is to point to various devout people within false religions. But that is the exact thing which Romans 1 does indeed address. These people in false religions have no love for the TRUE God, but rather they have shaped God to fit their on "fuitile speculations" and have created a God in their own images in the "image of corruptible man." They have "exchanged the truth of God for a lie." There is none who love the true God outside of the revelation of God in scripture and the grace given from him for us to do so. When he grants us "repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth" (2 Tim 2:25). A second major error in your thinking, and where you depart from historical Christian thinking is your failure to see the promises of the Messiah as the Old Testament means of trusting in Christ. Christianity has taught that as the Old Testament saints trusted upon the coming Messiah they were trusting upon Christ. No, they did not know that his name would be Jesus but they still were trusting upon him. The promise of the coming seed extends all the way back to the fall of mankind as God held forth Christ as the promised seed of the woman to those who would hope upon the promise and be saved. Your failure to accept this biblical and historical Christian teaching forces you to look to strange ideas to speculate how an Old Testament Jew was saved. These are two major missunderstanding you have which makes any discussion over specifics built about sound understanding in these errors completely impossible. You presumptions are simply foreign to the historical Christian faith and contrary to what scripture teaches. In addition you threw out all my careful explination of Romans 1 and simply told me how you feel it should be interpreted with no real exegesis defending your statment. Your responses were full of statemetns such as... "I see the passage you pointed to in 2 Cor 5:10 as speaking..." "I see Jesus dying for the sins of the world and judgment for the unsaved at the..." "I don’t think he fits in the same category." "My view of Romans 1:18-32 is..." "because to me this situation..." Everything you say is defended by how you think, see, or feel. No conversation can be constructive until you take your views, thoughts, and feelings and put them forward for scripture to utterly anhilate if it contrary to it. I say all this for the sole purpose of trying to explain why I can not answer your questions. There are too many things keeping you from the answers. I'm sorry. In Christ, Beja |
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5 | God's fair standards to judge evildoers | John 5:28 | EdB | 232607 | ||
The question of how does God deal with people that have never heard of Jesus Christ is a hotly debated issue outside the Reformed theology so I don’t think I stand outside of orthodoxy but I do admittedly stand outside Reformed. And the last I checked the forum guidelines this is still a forum where one theology does not over rule another just because someone insists it should. You say I am far aside of orthodox Christianity I say I stand in the middle of it and you have ignored what I say actually prevents us from going to eternal damnation. You say sin is what condemns us and I say of course it is sin but the fact is we all sin and fall short. In eternity when we stand in our homes in heaven the reason we will be there is not whether we sinned or not for we all sin but because our sins were paid for by the Blood of the Lamb on the cross. Jesus must be preached Acts 8:30-31 (NASB) 30 Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and said, "Do you understand what you are reading?" 31 And he said, "Well, how could I, unless someone guides me?" And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him. For Jesus to be understood the Eunuch said he needed some one to teach him or else this eunuch spoke a lie. Why would we consider others to be different? Jesus in his discussion with the Samaritan women mentions it. John 4:22 (NASB) 22 "You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. It was Paul's burden to preach he gives us a classic example of what we are talking about in the men of Lystra His answer is found in Acts 14:15 (NASB) 15 and saying, "Men, why are you doing these things? We are also men of the same nature as you, and preach the gospel to you that you should turn from these vain things to a living God, WHO MADE THE HEAVEN AND THE EARTH AND THE SEA AND ALL THAT IS IN THEM. Our theology is not that far apart but is seems like you want to find exceptions in what I'm saying. I can think of no reason except for your personal knowledge of my perspective of reformed theology which by forum guideline should not be the issue. |
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6 | God's fair standards to judge evildoers | John 5:28 | Beja | 232608 | ||
EdB, You have said, "you have ignored what I say actually prevents us from going to eternal damnation." Do you take what I have said to deny that we are saved by Christ's work on the cross? I have made no such denial in any of our discussion. You have said, "For Jesus to be understood the Eunuch said he needed some one to teach him or else this eunuch spoke a lie. Why would we consider others to be different?" When have I at any pointed suggested that Christ has no need to be taught? You have said, "you want to find exceptions in what I'm saying. I can think of no reason except for your personal knowledge of my perspective of reformed theology" You yourself thanked me for my exposition of Romans 1 and now you act as if my points are purely from a personal bias??? I have taken care to carefully explain the nature of your every error and yet you say it is not from any real solid ideas but just a bias? I don't know how to respond. You have said, "Reformed. And the last I checked the forum guidelines this is still a forum where one theology does not over rule another just because someone insists it should." As if I have not been discussing scripture and its right interpretation from context but merely saying you are wrong because you don't match some abstract dogma??? I wash my hands of the discussion. I said from the very beginning I did not wish to discuss any of it with you put merely provide a passage for other readers of this thread to reference. This is why I did not want to. May God and the careful reader judge for themselves the truth or error of what has been said. In Christ, Beja |
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7 | God's fair standards to judge evildoers | John 5:28 | EdB | 232610 | ||
Beja I have yet to understand the error you keep saying I have committed. You yourself said Romans 1:18-32 does not speak of Jesus. So my question again is how does God judge those that have never heard the name of Jesus? Are they saved because the lived righteously even though scripture says that is impossible? or Are they lost for never hearing of Jesus? Again that passage Romans 1:18-32 is clearly speaking of the person that denies God. Are you saying it is impossible to worship God and to have never heard the name of Jesus? Are you saying a person that worships God can and will get into heaven whether or not they believe in Jesus? You keep saying I'm in error what error is it you charge me of? |
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8 | God's fair standards to judge evildoers | John 5:28 | srbaegon | 232613 | ||
Hi EdB, I just caught this thread. Maybe this will help. Though Rom 1:18-32 does not speak explicitly of Jesus, he is spoken of since he is God: the same can be said of the Holy Spirit. God judges men according to their works. Those in Rom 1 demonstrate that they know enough truth about the God of scripture and have rejected him, as evidenced by their works. Men are lost because they are sinners and "children of wrath" (Eph 2:3). They refuse to believe the revelation they have been given. It is impossible to worship the God of Scripture without coming to him as he has revealed. Trying to come a different way only results in destruction. If Jesus is the way, truth, and life, any other attempt will fall short. Steve |
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9 | God's fair standards to judge evildoers | John 5:28 | EdB | 232624 | ||
Steve Let me ask you the same question. Do you or do you not believe it is possible to worship God to live a life as righteous as humanly possible and not to ever to have heard of Jesus? Basically this man would be the exact copy of the Old Testament saints that we know had to wait in Abraham's bosom until Jesus did actually come to them and preach the Good News taking them to captive to Heaven Eph 4:8. The question then is can a man that worships God like Abraham exists today in a place like the back waters of the Amazon where he never heard the name of Jesus? And if so and since Abraham's bosom is now empty what happens to such a person? And where do you see it spelled out in the Bible? |
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10 | God's fair standards to judge evildoers | John 5:28 | srbaegon | 232637 | ||
Hi, The answer to the question is no. Paul makes this plain: Rom 10:12-17 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." But how are they to call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent?... So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ. John does as well: John 3:18 Whoever believes in him (i.e., Jesus) is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 1 John 5:11-12 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. Steve |
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11 | God's fair standards to judge evildoers | John 5:28 | 00123 | 232640 | ||
Steve, I guess you must be American, Canadian, or of a nation whose history is short. Our LORD Jesus Christ was not known before 2,000 years. Many countries are older than that, and many people dies without a chance to hear the name or word of Jesus Christ. So, what other standards will be used to them? If you say Jesus is the standard to anyone, are you arguing that people who lived before Jesus came to earth was already condemned not to be saved at all? Seeking the truth, Dan |
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12 | God's fair standards to judge evildoers | John 5:28 | azurelaw | 232643 | ||
Dear Dan, You ask: "are you arguing that people who lived before Jesus came to earth was already condemned not to be saved at all?" Though I cannot answer on behalf of Steve, however, in response to your question, my answer is below (pay attention to the grammar): "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe HAS BEEN JUDGED ALREADY, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (John 3:18) I think Brother Beja's post 232596 about his exposition on Roman 1:18-32 is excellent and should be helpful for your understanding. You might consider to read those posts on the thread. Shalom Azure |
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13 | God's fair standards to judge evildoers | John 5:28 | EdB | 232649 | ||
YOu refer to brother Beja's exposition of Romans 1:18-32 and I agree it was excellent. However Romans 1:18-32 does not address the case of the righteous Jew that is in fact looking for the Messiah, has not created an idol, nor has he denied God. He simply is not aware that the Messiah Jesus Christ did in fact live and die and was resurrected. That news had not reached him before his own death. I believe if he had died before Jesus he would have gone to Abraham Bosom to await the Messiah to come to him and preach the "Good News" and to carry him home. However Abraham's Bosom is now empty so he can't go there. And because he hasn't yet called upon the name of Jesus for Salvation he still has sins. So upon his death how does God deal with this man? Please cite scripture. |
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14 | God's fair standards to judge evildoers | John 5:28 | Beja | 232651 | ||
EdB, For the record I answered this question in post 232604. In Christ, Beja |
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15 | God's fair standards to judge evildoers | John 5:28 | EdB | 232652 | ||
Beja I have gone back are reread your post 232604 where you said, "You are first assuming a situation which scripture is categorically denying the existence of. That is the point of Romans 1, there is no such human being. Every person in the entire world through sinful depraved hearts has either out right rejected what is universally known about God, or they have altered it to suit their own notions of what they want God to be." I disagree that Romans 1 eliminates such a man. If it does how do we handle David the "apple of God's eye"? Or how do we handle Abraham? Isaac? Jacob? There men all died awaiting the Messiah yet had to be taken to heaven by Jesus. They didn't directly do there upon their deaths. Upon Jesus death he went to Hades (abraham's bosom) and preached the Good News whereupon each that then accepted him as Messiah were as described in Eph 4:8 held captive by death but led captive to Heaven. Paul then later told us for us that are in Christ we immediately go to be with the Lord. But I do not see Romans 1:18-32 addressing the righteous Jew that lived during Jesus time but for one reason or another died before he every heard of the story of Jesus. I'm talking of a man equal to David, or Abraham, or Isaac. He hasn't created an idol, doesn't worship a false God, doesn't deny God and is very definitely awaiting the Messiah. These are not men of false religions these are men that followed hard after the God of Abraham,Isaac, and Jacob, after the God of creation, the Father who sent his Son Jesus Christ to live, to die for our sins and who was resurrected unto life eternal. That is not a false religion. |
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16 | God's fair standards to judge evildoers | John 5:28 | Beja | 232653 | ||
EdB, Read the post again. That's not even the right section. In Christ, Beja |
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17 | God's fair standards to judge evildoers | John 5:28 | EdB | 232656 | ||
What do you mean it is not the right section? Here is the post in it's entirity and I point you to the third paragraph in what you claim Roman 1:18-32 claims there is can be no person such as I describe. So I don't know what you mean it is not the right section. Full copy of referenced post. I struggle with how to respond to you. You are bringing so many assumptions to the text that make it impossible for you to see things rightly. I just don't know how to systematicly address all of it. Everything you are saying so far outside the historical Christian view of so many things. Let me at least give a couple examples. You said, "I’m talking of the person that truly loves God but for whatever reason has never heard of Jesus Christ." You are first assuming a situation which scripture is categorically denying the existence of. That is the point of Romans 1, there is no such human being. Every person in the entire world through sinful depraved hearts has either out right rejected what is universally known about God, or they have altered it to suit their own notions of what they want God to be. The reason you can't see scripture addressing what happens to a God loving person in ignorance is because there is no such thing as a God loving person in ignorance. We love because he first loved us. Any true love we have towards God is first prompted by a true understanding of God's grace towards us. Now your objection to this is to point to various devout people within false religions. But that is the exact thing which Romans 1 does indeed address. These people in false religions have no love for the TRUE God, but rather they have shaped God to fit their on "fuitile speculations" and have created a God in their own images in the "image of corruptible man." They have "exchanged the truth of God for a lie." There is none who love the true God outside of the revelation of God in scripture and the grace given from him for us to do so. When he grants us "repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth" (2 Tim 2:25). A second major error in your thinking, and where you depart from historical Christian thinking is your failure to see the promises of the Messiah as the Old Testament means of trusting in Christ. Christianity has taught that as the Old Testament saints trusted upon the coming Messiah they were trusting upon Christ. No, they did not know that his name would be Jesus but they still were trusting upon him. The promise of the coming seed extends all the way back to the fall of mankind as God held forth Christ as the promised seed of the woman to those who would hope upon the promise and be saved. Your failure to accept this biblical and historical Christian teaching forces you to look to strange ideas to speculate how an Old Testament Jew was saved. These are two major missunderstanding you have which makes any discussion over specifics built about sound understanding in these errors completely impossible. You presumptions are simply foreign to the historical Christian faith and contrary to what scripture teaches. In addition you threw out all my careful explination of Romans 1 and simply told me how you feel it should be interpreted with no real exegesis defending your statment. Your responses were full of statemetns such as... "I see the passage you pointed to in 2 Cor 5:10 as speaking..." "I see Jesus dying for the sins of the world and judgment for the unsaved at the..." "I don’t think he fits in the same category." "My view of Romans 1:18-32 is..." "because to me this situation..." Everything you say is defended by how you think, see, or feel. No conversation can be constructive until you take your views, thoughts, and feelings and put them forward for scripture to utterly anhilate if it contrary to it. I say all this for the sole purpose of trying to explain why I can not answer your questions. There are too many things keeping you from the answers. I'm sorry. |
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18 | God's fair standards to judge evildoers | John 5:28 | Beja | 232660 | ||
EdB, I keep writing replies and deleting them because they all sound insulting and condescending. I really am sorry for that. But I no longer know how to give you a reply that is not so. I can not believe that you can look at that post and not identify the correct paragraph. I am even more dumbfounded that you can not understand that I am telling you to look at a different paragraph in the post other than the one you are looking at. I can not communicate with you. Do you not think this thread has gone long enough and perhaps we should just let it die? Yet rest assured, somebody will come along and read this thread and think to be able to speak to you. You will not be satisfied with their answer and you will restate your entire case all over again. I plead with you to resist doing so. Lets let the thread die. Surely you see nothing edifying will likely come from it. We have answered you, you find the answers unconvincing, why go on? In Christ, Beja |
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19 | God's fair standards to judge evildoers | John 5:28 | EdB | 232671 | ||
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