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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | John 15:2, "cut off" or "lift up"? | John 15:2 | Parable | 47483 | ||
My question is about how we come to understand the meaning of scripture. I use the example of John 15:2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. (NKJV) Some have used this verse to support the idea that salvation can be lost due to poor performance as a servant of Christ. This idea is hard to understand in light of Romans 8:1 "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus," and Ephesians 2:8-9 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- not by works, so that no one can boast." Also, the footnote on John 15:2 provided at www.biblegateway.com, suggests the word for "takes away" can be translated "lifts up". How are "takes away" and "lifts up" related? Given these questions, how are we to understand what Jesus is really saying? In his book "Secrets of the Vine", p. 33, Bruce Wilkenson offers this: "..a clearer translation of the Greek word 'airo', rendered in John 15 as 'take way, would be 'take up' or 'lift up'. We find accurate renderings of airo, for example, when the disciples 'took up' twelve baskets of food after the feeding of the five thousand (Matthew 14:20), when Simon was forced to 'bear' Christ's cross (Matthew 27:32), and when John the Baptist called Jesus the Lamb of God who 'takes away the sin of the world (John 1:29)." He continues, "In fact, in both the Bible and in Greek literature, 'airo' never means 'cut off'. Therefore, when some Bibles render the word as 'takes away' or 'cut off' in John 15, it is an unfortunate interpretation rather than a clear translation." Clearly, Wilkinson is critical of the many Bibles that translate 'airo' in a way he does not accept. He goes so far as to say "in the Bible and Greek literature, 'airo' NEVER means 'cut off'." This is a bold statement, considering that so many Bibles do translate the meaning as 'take away' or 'cut off'. (See John 15:2 at www.biblegateweay.com and compare versions.) Also, he appeals to Greek literature, a non-biblical source, to support his position. Is it acceptable to question the Bible in this way? Is it acceptable to compare the Bible with other sources? I say YES to both. First, the Bible itself instructs us to "Test everything. Hold on to the good." -- 1 Thess 5:21 Second, the Bible often uses comparisons with life to make its point. Parables are the clearest example of how comparisons with things we already understand from life help us to understand God's truths. Third, Jesus' intent simply is not faithfully conveyed by "takes away" or "cut off". In light of everything the Bible teaches about grace, mercy and love, especially the redeeming work of Christ on the Cross and the meaning of His resurrection, the fact one verse may be translated in a way that is contrary to that global meaning should cause us to question that translation rather than the global meaning. Furthermore, if there is a reasonable way to translate that verse such that it supports the global meaning of Scripture, rather than confound it, we are duty-bound to examine the evidence in support of that translation and its consequences for interpretation. Given this responsibility, how does "take up" or "lifts up" faithfully convey Jesus' meaning? Wilkison explains it this way, in a conversation with a vinedresser he met. He stresses that the vinedresser wants each and every branch to be fruitful. Vinedresser: "New branches have a natural tendency to trail down and grow along the ground. But they don't bear fruit down there. When branches grow along the ground, the leaves get coated in dust. When it rains, they get muddy and mildewed. The branch becomes sick and useless." Wilkinson: "What do you do? Cut it off and throw it away?" Vinedresser: "Oh, no! The branch is much to valuable for that. We go through the vineyard with a bucket of water looking for those branches. We lift them up and wash them off. Then we wrap them around the trellis or tie them up. Pretty soon they're thriving." This is the understanding Jesus wants us to have because it is what the disciples and everyone else of that day would have understood. No one then would have accepted the idea of discarding an entire branch and neither should we. Pruning, on the other hand, is a different matter, and it is likewise understood to be loving discipline, not disposal. My questions to the forum? 1. Is this a biblical understanding of John 15:2? 2. Is there anything wrong in the method used to support this interpretation? 3. If you disagree, what do you suggest is the proper method and interpretation? Parable |
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2 | John 15:2, "cut off" or "lift up"? | John 15:2 | srbaegon | 47484 | ||
Hello Parable Great question! I agree and disagree with Bruce Wilkinson. It's true that airo does not mean "cut off," however I did a search on Liddell-Scott and there are three entries for the active voice. 1. lift, raise up -- raising sail; raising a child 2. raise up, exalt -- give honor 3. lift and take away, remove -- put an end to; destroy All three have the idea of lifting or raising, and context would be required to determine intent. Concerning the case in point I would compare John's usage of the word in the gospel as a whole. I don't have my books in front of me, but John 1:29 and 19:15 are uses that have the idea of "taking away." I would be inclined to conclude this is a better translation than "lift up." But I've been wrong before. Steve |
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3 | What then, is the meaning of John 15:2? | John 15:2 | Parable | 47485 | ||
The idea of comparing John's usage here to the gospel as a whole seems reasonable. Given that you prefer "take away" to "lift up", what is the meaning for us? Do you endorse the interpretation that if we don't bear fruit, we will be discarded? If so, please explain how this fits with the rest of John's theology. |
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4 | What then, is the meaning of John 15:2? | John 15:2 | TKO | 47488 | ||
I beleive it's reffering to chasening the child | ||||||
5 | so "cuts away" means "prunes"? | John 15:2 | Parable | 47493 | ||
For the branches that bear fruit, I agree. But for those that does not bear fruit, the verse, by the translation "cuts away", seems to suggest the branch is removed completely. Are you suggesting that the fruitless branch is only being pruned, and not cut away altogether, in order to stimulate growth? |
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6 | so "cuts away" means "prunes"? | John 15:2 | Mommapbs | 47775 | ||
Greetings Parable! Your question has been on the "unanswered" list since Wednesday! Searcher56 did write a post that addresses this question; so I have taken the liberty to cut and paste it here on this thread following my observations about another illustration of barrenness. At one time I equated fruitfulness with soul winning! (Boy was I in trouble here!) but God has shown me that there is much more to this "fruit" that He expects to see IN our lives! In Romans 12:1-2, Paul exhorts believers to "...be transformed by the renewing of our mind..." and throughout Scripture God challenges, "Change the way you think and act!" How do we accomplish this? Jesus said "Apart from me you can do nothing." John 15:5; and Paul asserted, "I can do all things THROUGH Christ . . ." Phil 4:13 I believe that the following parable reveals what FRUITFULNESS really is! "Then Jesus used this illustration: A man had a fig tree growing in His vineyard. He went to look for fruit on the tree but didn't find any. He said to the gardener, 'For the last three years I've come to look for figs on this fig tree but haven't found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up good soil?' The gardener replied, 'Sir, let it stand for one more year. I'll dig around it and fertilize it. Maybe next year it'll have figs. But if not, then cut it down.'" Luke 13:6-9 Just as the gardener expected to find figs on a fig tree, so does our Heavenly Father expect to see the qualities of His Son growing in us- His children. When there is no fruit evident, He uses measures to encourage its growth. We must remember that it is the presence of Jesus that enables the "fruit" to grow; He uses different means to accomplish His purposes for us! Fertilizer adds necessary nutrients to stimulate production and the action of digging brings life-giving air to the soil as well as removing obstacles that hinder strong root formation. Yet, the ultimate expression of that fruit is dependent upon our cooperation, our yieldedness or obedience. (First to believe and then to grow by continued obedience to He who is IN us!) God is patient with us, but it is clear that barrenness has consequences! Blessings, Mommapbs From Searcher 56 Word Study: Prune (Kathairo) Take away (Airo) Prune is kathairo (Strong's 2508) and means "to cleanse, of filth impurity". It is translated purge by NASB in Heb 10:2. The root is katharos (Strong's 2513) "clean, pure". Airo (Strong's 142) gives us take away. The same word is used in Matt 16:24, when a disciple is to take up his cross. It is to move it from place to another. The fruitless branch is not pruned, only the one bearing fruit. If there was no pruning, eventually the fruitful branch would be fruitless. Hope this helps, Searcher |
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