Results 1 - 6 of 6
|
|
|||||
Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | What did Jesus mean? | John 13:18 | brother paul | 179754 | ||
Dear brother, I deeply thank you for your reply. It is the best post I have received. My thoughts have been concentrated recently on the fact that truth is a person, not an idea. He is truth. The betraying of Christ by Judas is not an obsession, it is only an example. The reason why I return to this example, is because no-one seems to address the principle. Adam has to reject God, Peter deny Christ, Israel condemn Jesus, Paul persecute the church, David commits murder and adultery, Moses kills, to bring Christ to a place where we can accept Him. It is all somehow part and plan of His design. I pray and consider what you have written, I do not reject anything, but merely seek of Him. There is something that the 'sin must become sunful' turn him 'over to Satan that the spirit might be saved'. I have personally experienced this rejection before I feel I know Him. Does anyone else sense this? If we begin to understand that there is a process of alienation before reconciliation, we begin to understand His ways, not merely His acts. I no longer seek to 'prove' certain doctrinual points to win debates. I try to empty myself, so that I can be taught of Him. Your final statement did acknowledge that the betraying of Christ did somehow contribute to His identification and belief that He is Messiah. This is my point, the process of rejection in His divine plan has advanced His purpose. God is all in all, through our sin He has triumphed. Yours and His, in Him Paul |
||||||
2 | What did Jesus mean? | John 13:18 | srbaegon | 179765 | ||
Hello Brother Paul, True, we are alienated before reconciliation. That is our state as being sinners. Col 1:21-22 (ESV) 21 And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, 22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him. However, you seem to be saying that we must become alienated. How do we become what we already are? Steve |
||||||
3 | What did Jesus mean? | John 13:18 | brother paul | 179776 | ||
Thanks Steve, Yes, yes, yes, everywhere I go in scripture seems to echo this principle, death before resurrection, alienation before reconciliation. On a larger scale did Israel have to be alienated before reconciliation? (Rom 11:15,25, 26) Please look at the scriptures. If it applies to the individual and Isreal, why should it not apply to the world? Going one step further, if Isreal had to fall and be rejected so that 'all Isreal might be saved', did Adam? Did all of us have to go through this procedure? Does 'sin' have a purpose? Then everything starts to make sense, does God work through sin and rejection to create Christ in us? These thoughts gravitate to a God who is 'all in all'. Our meaning and perception of 'sin' alters. There is purpose, design and creation in the fall of mankind. 'To the pure all things are pure', it is subtle, but catalysmic, in a way there is nothing 'wrong'. I find it difficult to explain in words, it is more a spiritual experience, but 'sin' becomes less condemnatory. The first century church seems to have a very relaxed view of sin. 1 Timothy 1:10 where murder, matricide, patricide and all the rest of fallen mankind is merely agaisnt 'doctrine'? Not 'law'? Romans 1:28, where all the slush and degeneration of mankind is 'inconvenient'.It doesnt seem to have the impact of 'sin' as in totally rejected. It is all a bit deeper, not simplistic, not legalistic, and phariasic, we need the Holy Spirit to bring us into all truth and understandind. Truth is His person, not ideas or doctrines, His love and compassion, His infinite grace. Yours and His, in Him Paul |
||||||
4 | What did Jesus mean? | John 13:18 | jlhetrick | 179790 | ||
Paul, Let me respectfully say that your repetitive argument has become concerning at least to me. In all honestly sir, your not even making sense. It's as though you are attempting to make the Scriptures agree with your fanciful idea. You write: "Going one step further, if Isreal had to fall and be rejected so that 'all Isreal might be saved', did Adam?" I believe it's been pointed out already but let me give it another shot. You seem to be missing the big pitcture. Adam was not created a sinner and was not created "unsaved". Adam enjoyed a perfect relationship with God and was in no need of reconciliation. It was Adam's acting on his own free will in disobedience that put him in a position to be in need of reconciliation. I do not find anything in Scripture that supports that Adam's fall was necessary to perpectuate his salvation. The concept is actually ridiculous. Quite the contrary; the work of Christ was necessary to overcome Adam's disobedience and the impact it had on mankind. Your truly putting the cart before the horse. The only way to make your argument valid is to work from the assumption that God is responsible for sin. As though He desired to save Adam thouogh Adam was not in need of being saved. So God set in motion a plan that would require Adam to sin so that He, God, could then save him. If this is your position, and it appears to be so, where in Scripture do you find support? After you state your argument you really get to the point. "Then everything starts to make sense, does God work through sin and rejection to create Christ in us?" "Then", when you agree with yourself it starts to make sense because it agrees with your belief. Perhaps a play on words, but to be clear, Christ is not created in us. Christ is no creation at all. The Holy Spirit is given to the elect that we might be newly created. And what does that new creation look like? Back to Adam; in His (God's) image. Finally, you come right out and say it when you write: "I find it difficult to explain in words, it is more a spiritual experience, but 'sin' becomes less condemnatory. The first century church seems to have a very relaxed view of sin." My friend, you are finding it difficult to explain because the Scriptures do not agree with you. But you appear to continue to resist that truth in favor of holding to your "spiritual experience". My question to you is, what "spiritual experience" is of God when it can't be explained and supported by Scripture? Think on that friend. And I can not end without addressing your obvious misuse of Scripture. Regarding 1 Tim. 1:10, what do you believe "doctrine" to be. We do not establish Scripture by doctrine, but instead, we rely on Scripture to establish it's own doctrine. Doctrine is not the creation of man, it is the developed understanding of God's word. It is not separate from the Law and whole of God's truth. Finally, Romans 1:28 actually contradicts what you attempt to make it say. Of course, you will need to continue reading beyond the single verse. Sin is much more than an "inconvenience" as you ascert. And the consequence of sin is total rejection in spite of your denial. When we read on we do see this clearly as it results in "Rom 1:29-32 all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 THOUGH THEY KNOW GOD'S DECREE THAT THOSE WHO PRACTICE SUCH THINGS DESERVE TO DIE, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them. (ESV) Not even a brief scan of should result in the thought that sin is merely an "inconvenience". It does leave us KNOWING, that the result is "total rejection". Praise be to God that He did not cause nor desire that I sin that He might save me. Praise our Lord and God that He did desire to save me and is able to do so in spite of my sin, not through it. Jeff |
||||||
5 | What did Jesus mean? | John 13:18 | brother paul | 179813 | ||
Dear Jeff, I must thank you for your reply, your time and patience with me. I can appreciate how wearisome this discussion has become to you and the other people frequenting this forum. It is difficult to explain a total scriptural concept in short postings. I ask you to consider the predestined sacrifice of Christ, our saviour, and the whole journey of mankind through sin to salvation. Project earth, to 'form' man in His image. Here I stand corrected, you are right, Christ is not 'created' in us, I should have used 'formed'. Thank you for pointing out my error, wont do that again. Although man is created on the sixth day (Gen 1:27) he is formed on the seventh. (2:7) These are different processes and the seventh day is still running in Heb 4:1-4 several millenia later. It is this 'forming' that I refer too, the completion of His purpose. The forming (yatsar in Hb.) the work of the potter. I now come to your comments of my remarks concerning the letters to Timothy and the Romans, you said I did not 'read on'. Well lets read on, Romans 2:1-4 says it is wrong to judge such actions. This is the main point of Paul's debate, that these people should not be judged by the believers. Dear brother, I am not playing with words, it is not a game, I seek of Him. I have to harmonize all the mess of this world's mess with a God who is ultimate control. The world is where He wants it to be in His divine plan, otherwise He is not God. The mess that we witness has to have a purpose, He permits that, that He could prevent. It is not an unforeseen accident, it is not crisis management, it is the outworking of His purpose. I will pray and meditate on the thoughts you have given me, I thank you and love you in Him, thank you my brother, Yours and His, Paul |
||||||
6 | What did Jesus mean? | John 13:18 | jlhetrick | 179815 | ||
Hello again Paul, I appreciate your response. I would like clarification on the following statement though. I'm sorry but I didn't get your point. You wrote: "I now come to your comments of my remarks concerning the letters to Timothy and the Romans, you said I did not 'read on'. Well lets read on, Romans 2:1-4 says it is wrong to judge such actions. This is the main point of Paul's debate, that these people should not be judged by the believers." I believe the point Paul was making there involves the issue of hypocrisy. As for the "play on words" I was not referring to you. I was referring to the comment I was about to make in the post. Recognizing that my comments may have been interpreted as splitting hairs, I am confused enough by what you are teaching that I felt it important to address the "Christ created" comment. Thank you for clarifying that point and your position on that. As for the creation of man on the sixth day and the formation of man on the seventh day; it's a different discussion but I might suggest that you read through chapters 1 and 2 and consider if the two accounts represent two different events, or the same event? So as not to appear intentionally divisive or "nit-picky"; allow me to address only one more point in your post. You wrote: "It is difficult to explain a total scriptural concept in short postings. I ask you to consider the predestined sacrifice of Christ, our saviour, and the whole journey of mankind through sin to salvation. Project earth, to 'form' man in His image." Most assuredly I consider the sacrifice of Christ and we have no disagreement regarding the necessity of it nor the purpose; to justify sinful man. I will attempt once more to make sense of this. When I referred to the "big picture" in my earlier post this is what I meant. You focus on man's "journey" "through sin and salvation". What I'm asking you to consider is that the journey did not begin there, with sin. Man, Adam, began as a sinless creation. We have to start there or we risk laying the responsibility for sin at the feet of God. Lets not forget that Adam was created in the image of God. I don't pretend to fully understand that but I do believe that free will is part of it. Of course all-knowing God knew that Adam would sin. But did He plan for Adam to sin, that is, cause it as a means of working out His plan? I say no, you appear to be saying yes. There we disagree. Our being made in His image is the work of justification and sanctification that is worked in us by God. It is a NEW creation, a conversion of the old into something new. Hope this helps make my point more clear, Jeff |
||||||