Results 1 - 18 of 18
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | When do we become sinners? | Ps 51:5 | Searcher56 | 11985 | ||
When do we become sinners; at conception or birth? -If neither (later), cite Scripture and explain Psalm 51:5-6, too. Steve |
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2 | When do we become sinners? | Ps 51:5 | mattone | 12016 | ||
Just as Psalm 51:5 says, we are conceived in, and born in, sin. Psalm 51 as a whole is a prayer of confession, but not of one or even many sins. It is a prayer of confession for one's condition of sinfulness. As James May in his "Interpretation Commentary" comments, "Verse 5 is surely a way of confessing, not a particular transgression, but a whole life conditioned by sin from its beginning, a way of saying not just that I have sinned but that I am in my existence a sinner". He continues, our problem is that we need pardon from the predicament of ourselves, our entire existence. Now such a confession found here in verses 5 and 6, prepare us for the petitions of verse 7ff, to the end of the chapter. Now back to the question of when we become sinners, there are parallels to verse 5 and it's reference to our conception and birth as the beginning of our sinfulness, found in the Prophet Ezekiel's writings. In chapters 16, the Prophet tells of Israel's beginnings in sin that parallels our own beginnings, "Your origin and your birth are of the Land of the Canaanites; your father was an Amorite and your mother a Hitite" (Ezekiel 16:3), parallels similar to this one can be found in chapters 20 and 23, as well as in Isaiah chapter 43, 48. I hope this helps, JCP. | ||||||
3 | When do we become sinners? | Ps 51:5 | Searcher56 | 12111 | ||
Based on what God did to Sodom and planned to do to Ninevah - the "innocent" babies will be destroyed ... there is no "age of accountability" - we are born, if not concieve as a sinner. | ||||||
4 | When do we become sinners? | Ps 51:5 | Makarios | 12147 | ||
Steve, I sincerely disagree with you here: "Based on what God did to Sodom and planned to do to Ninevah - the "innocent" babies will be destroyed ... there is no "age of accountability" - we are born, if not concieve as a sinner." What do the punishments of Sodom and Ninevah have to do with babies? And yes, there is an age of accountability for children! They are conceived with the sin nature intact, but they do not "know" this and therefore cannot bring condemnation upon themselves if they do not know that they have 'disobeyed' or did wrong. This, I believe, is what protects innocent children and assures them of being cared for by the Lord if they were to die before they learn accountability. I believe that you are severly mistaken here. --Nolan |
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5 | When do we become sinners? | Ps 51:5 | mattone | 12179 | ||
Nolan, I'm not sure that you can support your idea scripturally. I do believe that God by His mercy protects the infant elect, but it has nothing to do with infants not knowing of their nature. You nor I can support this from Scripture? In addition, I think Steve's point is that everyone in Sodom (the Sodomites died in sin)was destroyed, including infants, and that the same would have happened in Ninevah had they not repented. Scripture tells us we are sinners from the beginning, period, and for that we are in need of a Saviour, period. I would suggest Dr Ronald Nash's book "When a Baby Dies", an excellent book by a professor from Reformed Theological Seminary on the subject. But there is no support from God's Word concerning those under the age of accountability, in fact I can't find text for this idea of an age of accountability. --JCP |
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6 | When do we become sinners? | Ps 51:5 | Morant61 | 12187 | ||
Greetings JCP! Like Nolan, I come from an Arminian perspective theologically. My point here isn't to debate Calvinism, but there is one possible reference to the age of accountability in Scripture. Paul says in Rom. 7:9, "Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died." Some see this is a possible reference to the age of accountability. Paul, as a youngster, was not under the condemnation of the Law. Thus, he was alive apart from the Law. However, he reached an age where he understood the Law, and death came as a result. The main premise of the age of acountability, at least from an Arminian perspective, is the doctine of unlimited atonement. We believe that Christ's death pays for original sin, thus one is not held "guilty" until one has the opportunity to accept or reject Christ. God Bless! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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7 | When do we become sinners? | Ps 51:5 | mattone | 12205 | ||
Hey Tim, thanks for your response. but I feel as if I've said to much already, so I'm going to respond once more and then give some others a chance to participate. First, Romans 7:9 is a difficult passage. The best of Christian minds have had trouble with this text. In fact, in 10 commentaries on Romans 7:9, I could find not one allusion to the idea of the age of accountability, not to mention that Paul in his entire argument here makes no reference to the subject either. Now the rules of exegesis tell us that Scripture interprets Scripture. So here we have this 1 verse that as you put it, could be a possible reference to the age of accountability, a verse in which Paul makes no reference to the subject, and of the many commentaries I referenced not one even remotely saw this verse in that light. Yet on the other hand we have the entirety of the Pauline corpus that speaks of all men being born into sin as a result of Adam's federal headship. "As it is written, There is none righteous, not even one" (Rom 3:10, Psalm 14:1,3, 53:1,3). To quote Paul again, "all have fallen short of the glory of God". In Ephesians 2 the Apostle tells us we were dead men, dead in our trespasses and sin. So we have one obscure verse with possible inference as you put it, versus the entirety of Paul's teaching, not to mention the rest of Scripture, that in Adam we are all born into sin, and are held responsible for that sin. Now you are right, this is not the place for a debate on the "Doctrines of Grace", but from your semi-pelagian perspective, when you assume that our Lord died for those who are in hell,then you must also assume that his blood was not effective enough where their souls were concerned. But when you assume that Christ died for the sins of the elect, of which, not one will be lost, then we know that his sacrifice was completely effective, and this I believe is the supported view of Scripture. But I digress, for we have traveled a long way from the original question, for where Romans 7:9 is a bit on the difficult side, David's words are quite clear, "Behold I was brought forth in iniquity"(Psalm 51:5), "Purify me with Hyssop and I will be clean, Wash me and I shall be whiter than snow" (Psalm 51:7). Also your Brother in our Lord, JCP. |
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8 | When do we become sinners? | Ps 51:5 | Makarios | 12216 | ||
Dear JCP, We certainly do have a 'fundamental' difference here in thought, that is for sure. Tim has provided an excellent answer here that displays my very interpretation and I am in full agreement with him! I would begin to counter what you stated about the "Doctrines of Grace", but I will refrain from that, since I would be running the risk of plunging this Forum into another Calvinism/Arminianism debate, and that is not something that I am willing to do, even though I disagree with what you have stated. I am completely Arminian when the issue of the "blood of Christ" comes up, and you may find the "Forum archives" on these issues (election, Calvinism vs. Arminianism, etc.) quite interesting.. Blessings to you, Nolan |
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9 | When do we become sinners? | Ps 51:5 | mattone | 12268 | ||
Yes, Nolan I'm sad to say we do have some difference here. There was a time when the discussion of God's Word was a noble thing, people were not afraid of words like doctrine and theology, and it was not considered plunging one's self, I assume by your tone, into something negative, by hearty, though courteous discussion. You speak of Tim's reply, and not to beat up on Tim but (yes the but word again..), he alluded to the fact that in Sodom's destruction, their eternal state was not in view. What about Abraham's dialogue with the Angel of the Lord, "for just 10 righteous men I will not destroy Sodom" (excuse my paraphrasing). What of the Apostle's quoting of Isaiah and Jeremiah in Romans 9:29, "except the Lord of Sabbath had left us a POSTERITY, we would become as Sodom". Or what of Peter's comparison of the Sodomites and Lot in II Peter 2:6ff, look particularly at verse 9 and 10. Nolan, my concern is that we look honestly at Scripture, and that we represent it faithfully. My intent is not to insult but to build up and I cannot find the Age of Accountability in Scripture, nor does Romans 7:9 seem to support the notion. Please forgive me if I have offended you in any way, my confidence though is in Christ and his word faithfully taught. Your brother in Christ, Peace. --JCP |
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10 | When do we become sinners? | Ps 51:5 | Makarios | 12325 | ||
Greetings again JCP, Yes, discussing God's Holy Word is a noble endeavor, and in no way am I trying to shun, avoid, or put a "dark" light on this discussion. However, it would be rather easy for one to become "carried away" and stray off of the original topic here to examine more of the roots of our 'fundamental' differences, which has been done through many past posts in several different threads on this Forum. I agree, we must look honestly at Scripture and represent it faithfully and clearly, without any prior 'presuppositions' with clear and sober thinking. I also agree that Romans 7:9 seems rather 'inconclusive' in regards to supporting the Age of Accountability.. However, I do believe that there is an "Age of Accountability"; that there is an age when children become responsible before God. Though the particular 'age' is not the same for every child. Obviously, some children mature faster than others. A verse that relates to this issue is James 4:17, where we read: "Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin." It would seem from this verse that when a child truly comes into a full awareness and moral understanding of "oughts" and "shoulds," he or she at that point has reached the Age of Accountability. No, you have not offended me in any way! I also seek to have the Bible faithfully taught, and I believe that an "Age of Accountability" would also supplement the faithfulness of the teachings of Scripture as well. Peacefully, your Brother in Christ! --Nolan |
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11 | When do we become sinners? | Ps 51:5 | mattone | 12407 | ||
Hey Nolan, I was so pleased to get your note, thank you. And yes, I do agree many of these types of discussions laspe into arguments that stray far from the questions or text at hand. As to James 4:17, wouldn't one's realization of right from wrong result from the Spirit's indwelling, thus the quickening of their spirit? Or to use the words of Jesus, they now have eyes to see, and ears to hear (see Matthew 13). Doesn't Paul say in Romans 8:7-8 that the person who is in the flesh (unsaved) is not even able to please God? In Christ our King, Peace. --JCP |
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12 | When do we become sinners? | Ps 51:5 | Makarios | 12412 | ||
Blessings JCP, I agree with you that one who is in the flesh (unsaved) cannot even please God (Romans 8:7-8). And we all start out this way. However, we come to know the difference between right from wrong not initially by the Spirit's presence, but by knowledge of the Law (Romans 3:20). And sin is not understood or applicable until one can gain a grasp (or develop to the point) of the Law and its demands on conduct and consequences to certain behavior, etc. (Romans 5:13; 7:7-9). However, when a person is called or acts upon their volition to choose God and is saved as a result, then they are free from this Law because of the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:2). And yes, the person now has 'eyes to see and ears to hear' (Matthew 13). Grace to you and peace! --Nolan |
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13 | When do we become sinners? | Ps 51:5 | mattone | 12554 | ||
Hey Nolan, let me backup and approach this another way, because we are beginning to confuse issues. Your belief, being from an Arminian perspective, teaches that Christ died for all humans. That humans possess free will, the ability to accept or reject God's offer of Grace, and that election is based totally on God's foreknowledge into the future of those who will accept that gift. Therefore, only those persons who exercise their "free will", by rejecting death and accepting life are saved. So Christ's death only created the possibility of salvation for anyone, that is, anyone who exercises his or her "will" for life. So God does not unconditionally elect anyone to salvation without that person's exercising of their consent to His gift of eternal life. Then we come to the idea of infants and/or incapables, those who as you put it, have not reached an age of accountability, or a state of culpability for their sin nature, thus their inevitable sins. So if they die in that state, you are pronouncing them saved because God now unconditionally elects them to that state of grace, since they can not do it themselves. Or, I guess there is of course the possibility in your system, that God MUST save these infants and incapables because they are without blemish. For God punishes us for our sins. Have you seriously thought about this? Nolan, in all of this, where does Paul's statement in Ephesians 2:8-10 come in? Or what about your own agreement with me on the point that, "anyone in the flesh cannot please God, and we all start out that way". This of course being without doubt a biblical perspective. Nolan, if you believe that God elects infants unconditionally, then you're a Calvinist, which then creates problems with the rest of your system, and if you believe he must save infants because they are sinless, then you really don't agree that we all start out that way, dead in our sins and trespasses unable to even please God. And of course, this would put you in the position of disagreeing with Scripture, which you've already said that you do agree with it. By the way, and you've never asked me, you just started disagreeing with me in pricipal, but I to believe that infants and incapables are saved. Can you guess how? Nolan, I want you to think about one more thing, why did God save Ninevah, 120,000 persons who also did not know their right hand from their left. But in Deuteronomy 20:13-18 we find a different situation, and I quote verse 16, "Only in the cities of these peoples that the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes". Just some food for thought. I pray the Lord is blessing you and yours..., for in Him we live, move, and have our existence--JCP |
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14 | When do we become sinners? | Ps 51:5 | Makarios | 12600 | ||
Dear JCP, I believe that we have not confused issues (at least I have not), and I see that you are getting completely and clearly off the subject of the original question with your reply. The Forum well knows my stance on the issue of election and free will, and if you'd like to delve into that discussion any further than this point, then I suggest that you check the Forum archives. I will not be "baited" or led any futher into this discussion with you, and I hope that I have explained myself well. Thank you! --Nolan |
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15 | When do we become sinners? | Ps 51:5 | mattone | 12611 | ||
Hey Nolan, I'm sorry you feel baited, that was not my intention. My friend in Christ, it is you who have gotten off of the original subject. Which was, When do we become sinners, and the interpretation of Psalms 51:5-6. But, I understand if you don't want to answer my questions, questions that were clearly directed at YOUR arguments on the state of Infants and Incapables in death, and the so-called "age of accountability". Obviously I've hit a sore spot, I apologize. Have a great day and a blessed weekend. --JCP |
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16 | When do we become sinners? | Ps 51:5 | Makarios | 12612 | ||
Hey there JCP, You didn't hit a 'sore spot' with me, my friend, so you can relieve yourself of the burden of me possibly "holding a grudge".. :) It is obvious that we disagree. In my interpretation, we can go no further unless we deal with the "deeper issues" first (what I am trying to avoid). In your interpretation, you believe that crossing into a part of that "deeper" issue would help explain your viewpoint better. However, I feel that we have 'crossed the line' here, and the way that I received your 'questions' to my reply was as another way to attack Arminianism rather than answering what I have stated about the "Age of Accountability." I have pretty much said all that could be stated about my stance on that subject here. Thank you and you also have a great day and blessed weekend. --Nolan |
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17 | When do we become sinners? | Ps 51:5 | mattone | 12834 | ||
Nolan, we are nowhere near a deeper issue!!! These arguments are referred to in most circles as BASIC Christianity. Anyone can understand that it is God who saves and not us who save ourselves. Again Basic Christianity. For example: For by grace you have been saved, not of works, lest any man boast. For it does not depend on the man who wills, or runs, but on God who has mercy on whom He will have mercy. It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick. Nolan, "go and learn what this means, I desire compassion and not sacrifice, for I did not come to call the righteous, BUT SINNERS (emphasis and paraphrasing is mine). None come unto the Father unless I first call them. For I am confident that HE WHO BEGAN A GOOD WORK IN You will perfect it until the day of Jesus Christ. Nolan, it is you and Tim who opened this can of worms about infants and the age of accountability. Every reply I've given you is towards that discussion. My last reply was repeating your belief, using your words, are you ashamed of them? Nolan, we both believe God saves infants, I'm asking you to defend yours with Scripture. I believe you can, as I alluded to in my earlier reply. But where in scripture is there state of moral neutrality for anyone? And if there is not one, then again, it is that God chooses whom he will have mercy on! Nolan, if this next reply is like your last one, then I must say good bye to this subject and move on. But let me say that you are forever my brother in Christ, for it is he that will keep us from harms way! --JCP |
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18 | When do we become sinners? | Ps 51:5 | Makarios | 12844 | ||
Greetings mattone (JCP), Yes, I am aware of you and I know that you think along the lines of Calvinism.. It has been revealed that I think differently than you do. I have said once before that I will not be goaded into an argument with you. In a Forum so diverse with myriad topics, isn't there anything else that you would like to talk about, my friend? By all means, have the last word on this thread, my friend, and reply to this post! Your Brother in Christ, Nolan |
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