Results 1 - 4 of 4
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Can we not ask God to forgive another? | John | Aixen7z4 | 150971 | ||
It seems to me that Jesus is saying (in Luke 17:4, which has been referenced already in this conversation) "If he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him". Jesus is not teaching falsely when he says, “After this manner pray ye … ‘Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors" or “If you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you." We are to assume he is being consistent, and that what he said to Peter in Luke 17, he is saying to us all, that forgiveness presupposes repentance. I sincerely regret giving the impression that the conditions for forgiveness are my idea. It seems to be they are Jesus', and I got that impression from reading Ezekiel 33, Luke 13, Luke 17, Luke 24, Acts 17, 2 Peret 3, Revelation 2, etc. I do not assume that everyone is familiar with all of those passages, but I thought they might have read my previous posts within the thread and seen some of them before coming to that impression. |
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2 | Can we not ask God to forgive another? | John | Hank | 150983 | ||
Aixen: Your exegesis of Luke 17:4 appears flawed. The number 7 was not to set a limit on the number of times to forgive but exactly the opposite. Compare Matthew 18:21,22, which does not add the provisional "I repent" clause of Luke 17:4. Neither do Ephesians 4:32 and Colossians 3:13. Jesus clearly taught the principle of forgiving our debtors in Matthew 6:12,14,15. The Lukan passage does not contradict His teaching. If you will read the full context in which Luke 17:4 appears, you will see that Jesus is speaking not only of forgiving others their offenses but of rebuking them as well. In the Matthew 6 prayer Jesus laid it down clearly that God will not forgive our transgressions until we have forgiven those who have transgressed against us. This is true whether or not they have apologized, repented, asked us to forgive them or whatever. Jesus' point in Luke 17:1-4 is expounded on and the context explained in greater detail in Matthew 18: 15-35. Reading and studying these passages in both Luke 17 and Matthew 18, comparing them with each other and both with what Christ taught about forgiveness in Matthew 6, should make it clear that Jesus' disciples, to be forgiven their sins, must forgive their debtors unconditionally in their hearts and not harbor grudges or ill will against them no matter what the debtors do. This forgiving spirit is intimately related to and absolutely essential to receiving God's forgiveness. ...... Isolated verses of Scripture sometimes appear to be in conflict with one another, but properly exegeted in context, they never are. ...... .... In Luke 17:3 Jesus says, Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him." Then in the next verse, vs. 4, Jesus says, "And if he sins against you seven times a day and returns to you seven times saying, 'I repent' forgive him." Did he truly repent, or did he merely SAY he did? So far as our command to forgive him is concerned, it really doesn't matter. Jesus said to forgive him anyway. And is it any easier to forgive a man who sins against you who SAYS he repents than one who does not say so? If someone walks up to you and slaps you in the face and says, Oh, I'm sorry."' and if that same man comes back six more times the same day and slaps you in the face and says "Oh, I'm sorry" each time, is it any easier to forgive him than to forive the guy who pokes you in the nose and walks off without saying a word? It is not given to us to withhold our forgiveness of our debtors until we are absolutly sure they have repented of their transgressions against us. We may never even see them again. We may never know whether they have repented. --Hank | ||||||
3 | Can we not ask God to forgive another? | John | Aixen7z4 | 150988 | ||
My Brother Hank: It is easy to say, “You are wrong”. It is more difficult, but more rewarding, to try to understand why the person says what he’s said. Usually, there is some kernel of truth in it. Your scenario leaves us with only one option: Forgive, forgive, forgive. Is that what you would do to the man who punches you repeatedly? Jesus gives us another option: help him to the point of repentance. Thus, we do not simply forgive the brother who is living in sin. There are steps that we take (See 1 Corinthians 5). We cause him sorrow, not by insulting him or threatening him, but by entreating him, by withdrawing fellowship from him if he does not respond. If he repents you forgive him. If he does not repent, you disfellowship him. That loss of fellowship with God’s people will eat at one of God’s people. It is reflecting a lack of fellowship with God. That will cause sorrow, godly sorrow, and repentance, and restoration. I am afraid that unconditional forgiveness, if there is such a thing, will not accomplish that goal. God knows that the constant offer of such forgiveness often fails to accomplish that goal. For thus saith the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel, “In returning and rest shall ye be saved; in quietness and in confidence shall be your strength: and ye would not” (Isaiah 30:15). But God does not change his requirement. God still commands all men everywhere to repent. And he tells us in Luke 17 to require it. But why do we assume that a passage with additional information must be diluted because another passage does not have the information? God says, “Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved” (Romans 10). He does not tell us there that they must repent, but don’t we know it? Don’t we have that information in other passages? We do not go for the least common denominator. We add the factors. We do not discard the additional information. We add it. Matthew 18 does not tell us that the brother must repent, but Luke 17 does. 1 Corinthians 5 does. Luke 13 does. Ezekiel 33 does. Do we then delete the requirement of repentance from Luke 17, or do we add it to Matthew 18? It seems to me (and I do not use that phrase to disregard the forum guidelines but to avoid any appearance of evil arrogance and dogmatism) it seems to me that forgiveness has no meaning without repentance. God requires it of us, and he asks us to look for it in others. If there could be restoration without repentance then I suppose anyone could be granted a place in heaven. But Jesus linked the two when he said, “repentance and remission of sins” should be preached in his name (Luke 24:47). God loves the world, and he is not willing that any should perish. But “unless you repent, you will all likewise perish”. Without repentance from the offending person, forgiveness is not possible. You may wink at a person’s transgression, and you may overlook it. But that is not my understanding of what the word Forgiveness means. Forgiveness is a relieving of the person of his sense of guilt and culpability. If he has no such sense, then you cannot relieve him of it. There may be consequences that he does not have to pay, but that fellowship will not be restored in the absence of repentance. If you “forgive” a person who has not repented, then you have done him no favor. You may have relieved yourself of a burden, but you have not helped the brother. Why does God require repentance? Why does he insist of it? My words are ended now, but I trust we can think on it. |
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4 | Can we not ask God to forgive another? | John | Hank | 150992 | ||
My dear Aixen: May be exit this thread in agreement that forgiveness is not only necessary but made possible through God's enablement. May we also take our leave of this thread with these words of our Lord upon our lips and inculated upon our hearts, "Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you." -- from Luke 6:27:28. ..... Now that is what I'd call forgiveness in action -- action that speaks louder than words! --Hank | ||||||