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Results		Verse	Author	ID#
1	Should a member rebuke an elder?	1 Chr 16:22	Bereaniam	179959
	Hello Doc, It is always so good to dialogue with you. I value this forum especially because of brothers like you. I know it is difficult, sometimes, to counsel and advise on some issues because both sides are not heard, body language speaks volumes, backgrounds are not known, agendas may be hidden, etc. Though I have written to this forum on more than one occasion about our Church...my husband and I have prayed and fasted about what to do about it for years. We both have been so grieved at how our leadership has evolved during the past few years. When we met the pastors (he and his wife are co-pastors) 14 years ago...you could not have met a more humble couple. They were both coming out of a strict pentecostal upbringing. They became involved with Paul and Jane Crouch of TBN ministry, the prosperity message, mega-Church mania, titles (he had a "doctorate" conferred on him and recently became a "bishop"),etc. They have been on national TV many times. Sometimes success can be your friend...but sometimes it can be your enemy. The pastor is very charismatic and constanly tells us the "buck stops with me". He and his family started the Church, so it is "family owned". All three of his children, daughter-in-law, son-in-law, sister, his son's father and mother-in-law, father and mother-in-law, ex-brother-in-law are all on Church's payroll. He and his wife are much younger than my husband and I. My pastor has never had any formal theology training...only finished high school. I love them dearly. They have never been anything but good to my husband and me...we have been given more positions of leadership than we could fulfill. We have no hidden agenda, bias or bitternes against them. Our objective is to get them on the same page with the Bible as we see and understand it. We are also very grieved for the people who are being psychologically enslaved to this Neo-Christian practice. We solicited a meeting with the pastors/elders to discuss what we have been observing. No one responded until one Saturday night at our regular prayer meeting. An associate pastor (relative of the pastor) and an elder pulled me from the meeting to discuss the matter. I was alone...my husband was not there. This was about two months ago. We have not heard from them since that time. We do desire resolve, reconciliation...we let them know that they could always feel free to call, email, come to our home, etc. On our (former) Church's website, our pastor's bio says that he is gifted in the "ministry of reconciliation". Yet we have not heard from him in over three months. My "fleece" before the Lord in making any spiritual decision is to pray for wisdom, search the scriptures and my heart, then to feel at peace. I have no regrets about exhorting them...my husband and I pray ernestly for them daily. Doc, what do you think about the Bereans, Aquila and Priscilla exhorting Paul, Apollos, respectively? Bereaniam
2	Should a member rebuke an elder?	1 Chr 16:22	Bereaniam	179955
	Hi Steve, My husband is very much part of this issue...we are in complete agreement. He is the spiritual head of our home. He does not participate in this forum...therefore you only hear from me. My husband and I only submitted our disagreement with the orthodoxy of the Church once. We have pondered and prayed about it forer years. We asked for a meeting with the pastor and/or elders but no one responded. I just happened to be at our regular Saturday night prayer meeting (without my husband) when an associate pastor (relative of the pastor) and an elder pulled me from the meeting to discuss the matter with me. We have no ax to grind...no hidden agenda...the Church leadership have been nothing but good to us. We have shared in more leadership positions that we could accomodate. We love our Church...our objective is to get them on the same page with the Bible as we see it. We, as loving as we could, let them know that this was not about "we are right and you are wrong". However, we did want them to "expound" on the scriptures to us where we were wrong. That has not happened. Thanks for you response. I am always receptive to the counsel I receive from this wonderful forum of brothers and sisters of the Word. Bereaniam
3	Should a member rebuke an elder?	1 Chr 16:22	Bereaniam	179931
	Brother Kalos, My post, dated 11-21, @11:27p.m. was not directed to you...but to Matronsgt13. I'm sorry. But I do mean that I have much respect for your wisdom about the Word of God. I enjoyed reading your post...it was very informative , as usual. Bereaniam
4	Should a member rebuke an elder?	1 Chr 16:22	Bereaniam	179930
	Greetings Doc, Thanks for yor response to my question. When you say that the elders are responding appropriately...what does that mean exactly? Jesus said if you find fault with a brother, tell him; if he hears you, you've gained a brother. If he does not hear you, take one/two witnesses ( I did that). If he still does not hear you, tell it to the Church (I don't believe they will allow that...but I will tell them if they ask inside or outside the building where we meet. Jesus goes on to say if he neglects to hear the Church, let him be as a heathen/publican (Mat 18:15). So do you believe that just because I questioned the practice of the elders...they should just ask me to leave without trying to help adjust me and my interpretation of scriptures? I asked one of the elders to point out to me where I was wrong...he just refused. When the disciples did not understand the teachings of Jesus...He took them aside to "expound" on the scriptures. Did not Jesus leave the 99 to go after the one sheep? How do you think Jesus would handle this situation? Bereaniam
5	Should a member rebuke an elder?	1 Chr 16:22	Bereaniam	179929
	Greetings Brother Kalos, I am so glad that you responded to my question. Thank you soooo much. You know that I have much respect for you as a student of the Word. I am familiar with the scripture you quoted from 1 Chron. (it also appears in Ps 105:15). I'm sure you know that the word "touch" in Hebrew means to strike, smite, or kill...I did not do that! Today, many of the Church leaders (The Untouchables) use that scripture to silence their critics. These "Untouchables" use that scripture as a diversion to keep the biblical illiterate at bay. Saul and David were "anointed", yet Samuel rebuked Saul, and Nathan rebuked David, (2Sam 12). Certainly, Peter was "anointed", but Paul rebuked him to his face(Gal 2:11). Paul was "anointed", but the Bereans searched the scriptures daily to see if what Paul was teaching was truth, and Paul called them "Noble",(Acts 17:11). Paul did not hide behind that scripture..."touch not my anointed..." Apollos is described as an eloquent man, mighty in the scriptures, yet Aquila and Priscilla took him aside to "expound" the way of the Lord more perfectly to him. I, for example, could be like Apollos...looking for someone to "expound" the scriptures to me, if I am wrong in my interpretation. That's all I was asking the leadership at my Church. All Christians are "anointed"...not just the 5(4)-fold ministry (Eph 4:11). 2Cor 1:20-22 says, God has "anointed" and sealed ALL of us. 1Jhn 2:27 states, "The "anointing" that we (all) have received is from God, and that "anointing" abides in ALL of us". Were the Bereans, Aquila, Priscilla, Nathan, Samuel laity? Did they have a right to question leadership? Do pastors (which I believe should not have the rule over the Church unless we equate pastors to elders), prophets, and whoever else you think is "anointed" have feet of clay?...are they mortal men?...are they better than the laity? I thought we were all part of the body of Christ...each has a different function...but the eye can't say it has no need for the ear. Not one part of the body of Christ is more anointed than the other in my understanding. What say you, Br. Kalos? Bereaniam
6	Rev 2 angels: pastors or messengers?	Rev 2:1	Bereaniam	179825
	Thanks for your reply, Doc...so is presbyter synonymous with pastor or elder? Bereaniam
7	Are pastors angels?	Rev 2:1	Bereaniam	178366
	Searcher56, I am sorry...but I do not understand your line of reasoning here. Titus 1:5-7 clearly shows that an elder is an bishop. Eph 4:11 clearly shows that a pastor is a gift to the Church. So, if a bishop/overseer and pastor are the same...that would also mean that the bishop is also a gift from God to the Church. Is that what you are saying? I also do not understand what you mean by "it is hard to know if the Holy Spirit was writing to a group of churches"...what difference would that make? Also what do you mean by "it is a minor issue". Is it a minor issue how God's Church is structured? Should the elders have the rule(lead) or the pastor? His, Bereaniam
8	Are pastors angels?	Rev 2:1	Bereaniam	178365
	Brother Kalos, I so respect your wisdom, insight and diligence in contending for the faith in your notes to this forum. I recently (last week) submitted a three page letter outlining the duties of elders, documented with scriptures, to the elders where I "gather", and have gathered for the past 13 years. I let them know in the letter that the pastor rules like a CEO and lords over them (us). I asked them to prayerfully to investigate what I submitted. They are just "yes men" who cower in the pator's presence. At our Saturday night prayer where I attend faithfully (along with usually three or four others, maybe only one of our elders), I was pulled out by one elder and an associate pastor. The associate pastor is a relative of our "pastor" and on the payroll with 12 of their other relatives. He was vehement about the letter I sent out. He said if you don't like the way we run things around here, you should leave...the elder backed him up. I told the elder I just wanted to stir them up to study the scriptures because they are going to be held responsible for keeping out unsound doctrine. One of our elders does not even know who Paul, the apostle was...I asked him. His, Bereamiam
9	Are pastors angels?	Rev 2:1	Bereaniam	178335
	Thank you kind brother for your reply. The scriptures you cited does not show One Man Rule to me. These are the scriptures you cited: 1 Tim 3:1-7 These verses only give the qualifications for a bishop. Do you consider a bishop to be the same office/gift of a pastor? The word pastor(s) only appears once in the NT. A pastor (also prophet, evangelist, apostle,teacher) is a gift to the Body of Christ. I consider the pastor to be either an elder or an itinerant, at-large gift to the Church. In 1 Tim 5:1, just because it said not to rebuke an elder, how does that mean one-man rule? Does elder in this verse refer to the office of an elder or just a senior (presbyter)? Also this can be said if there are 3, 5, 10, etc. elders presiding. In 1Tim 5:17-19, it said the elders (plural) that rule well... Heb 13:7, 17, and 24 used the plural pronoun THEM. 1Pet 2:25 says the "Shepherd and Bishop of your soul...well this is referring to Jesus...not a pastor. Lastly, 1 Pet 5:1 cites the elders (plural) which are among you... According to my understanding, the scriptures you gave support plural leadership. Bereaniam
10	Should fornicators be leaders in church	Ps 111:1	Bereaniam	177896
	May God bless you too, Carol...beyond what you can ask, think, or contain. Thanks for taking the time to respond. His, Bereaniam
11	Should fornicators be leaders in church	Ps 111:1	Bereaniam	177879
	You are absolutely correct Hobbs. I should have clarified my statement. She was the "director" of the choir. Whenever the pastor called a meeting for the "leaders" of the Church, her position was included. Other persons included in those meetings, were "leaders" of the ushers, parking lot attendant, security, etc. His, Bereaniam
12	Should fornicators be leaders in church	Ps 111:1	Bereaniam	177854
	Thanks for a quick response. Many of our members feel the way that you do. Our Church is pastored by the family that founded it (nondenominational). He has started to run the church like a "corporation" and he is the "CEO". Though I have been there for 13 years...I have not attended for 2 months. I am asking God to direct me to where He wants me to fellowship. His, Bereaniam
13	Should fornicators be leaders in church	Eph 5:3	Bereaniam	177852
	This does help Mark, thanks. His, Bereaniam
14	Is it disrespectful to not use a title	Bible general Archive 3	Bereaniam	177844
	That's a great word, Mark. I pray that I can find a servant leader like your pastor. Thanks for the reply. His, Bereaniam
15	Is it disrespectful to not use a title	Bible general Archive 3	Bereaniam	177750
	Hi Doc, your pontification some times transcends my comprehension. Am I to understand that you said the English language is limited in expressing respect for ministers? I beg to differ with you if that is what you meant. The English language gives "men of the cloth" too, too many mechanisms for self-aggrandizement. They have many titles in front of their names; they are usually the CEO of the Church, more honor goes to them than the feeble, weak ones in 1Cor 12:23,24. We are all members of the body of Christ...He is the head of the Church. Not one member is more important than the other. Actually, 1Tim 5:17 states that double honor should go to the elders that rule well. Do you equate the office of an elder to the spiritual gift of pastor? We have discussed this before, but the word "pastor(s)" only appears once in the NT. So, why do you call the minister where you worship "pastor"? What is the biblical reference? Would he (or you) think you were being disrespectful if you called him by his first name only? His, Bereaniam
16	Is it disrespectful to not use a title	Bible general Archive 3	Bereaniam	177748
	Greetings WOS' The definition of "apostle" is messenger, he that is sent. Substituting that in the verse would look something like this: "...consider the (messenger, the one sent) and the High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus." Does that look like it can be used as a title? His, Bereaniam
17	Is it disrespectful to not use a title	Bible general Archive 3	Bereaniam	177744
	Thanks for the reply Hank...I just wish that all ministers were as humble as yours. I am in the process of finding a Church where I can gather with other Believers. The ones that basically agree with my beliefs have ministers with the titles: bishop, reverend, or Dr. Ps 111:9 states, "...holy and reverend is His name". Why would a minister want to use what God said is His name? It's almost arrogant! I will keep looking. His, Bereaniam
18	Is it disrespectful to not use a title	Bible general Archive 3	Bereaniam	177737
	Greetings Hank, Would it be disrespectful for you to call your pastor, "Dale", without saying Brother Dale? His, Bereaniam
19	Is it disrespectful to not use a title	Bible general Archive 3	Bereaniam	177736
	You said you use the title "Pastor" for those in your own (tradition). What does that mean? What do you think Paul meant when Jesus told him to write, "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the (tradition) of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ, Col 2:8? In Him, Bereaniam
20	Elders not a pastor should lead church	Bible general Archive 3	Bereaniam	176485
	Tim, also please read what Steve (srbaegon) wrote below. Bereaniam

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