Results 1 - 20 of 89
|
||||||
Results from: Notes Author: Bereaniam Ordered by Verse |
||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Elders not a pastor should lead church | Bible general Archive 3 | Bereaniam | 176318 | ||
Hello DocTrinsograce, Generally it was the same. In that post, I was concern about just visiting different congregations because I was not at peace in my current one. This time, I am asking if the government of the 21st century church is based on bible doctrine, or because someone was "led" by the Spirit to set one man as overseer, tradition, "whatever feels good", "whatever's user-friendly", etc. Should the Bible be the final authority that governs our behavior? Should we teach for bible doctrine, the commandments, traditions, and doctrines of men"? We have enough doctrine from the Holy Scriptures to follow...why make up some more? The mere fact that the word "pastors" only appears once in the NT should have red flags going off! Where are the Martin Luther's who will not compromise bible doctrine...who will not go along just to get along...who will expose and speak the truth in love...and not let the current aberrant exaltation of one man over the laity go unchallenged? Maybe I'm making too much of this...being too legalistic. I'm just looking for a group of believers who want to follow what Jesus died for. Jesus gave the gospel to Paul for us (Gentiles). Paul says over and over that he is our pattern to follow (of course as he follows Christ). Since the last time I was at this forum, I have visited several assemblies of believers. Their government is the same (pyramid-pastor at the top), they meet on Sundays...look at the back of people's head...sit passively listening to the "pastor", go home...don't see the back of these people's head until the next Sunday; a handful return on Wed. night...even fewer for prayer meeting night(if they have a prayer meeting night-most don't); they believe in tithing -Mal. 3:8-12; prosperity message (more is not enough), gimmicks, schemes, con games to get you to give, etc.; most of the "tithe" is for the "pastor" and/or bigger building. Thanks for your reply and opportunity to sound off. Bereaniam |
||||||
2 | Elders not a pastor should lead church | Bible general Archive 3 | Bereaniam | 176322 | ||
Thanks Doc, I will try to research if those type of congregations exist in my immediate community. I will also look into Dr. Devers "Nine Marks of a Healthy Church". As for Eutychus...most of us would fall asleep if someone was as "longwinded" as Luke described Paul. Luke said Paul spoke til midnight. You said, "Don't you think some of what you see today was passed down from the infant church?" That's my very point of concern...Paul said the time was going to come when the church would not endure sound doctrine...they would turn their ears from the truth...have itching ears, and accumulate "pastors" after their own desires. As for Martin Luther, I'm just grateful to him for the Protestant Reformation that opened the church's eyes to salvation by grace through faith alone in Jesus Christ. If it weren't for him we might still be paying and working for our salvation. Again, Br. Doc, you are saying of your own congregation, that you have a "pastor" not based on scripture, but man's thoughts and traditions. The carnal mind is enmity against God. Why can't we base church polity on the Word. Why put it on the back burner? You also said "Christianity has many transcultural mandates and principles." So, does that mean the Bible takes a backseat to our culture, or should the Bible shape our culture? We are told not to love the things of this world. As I get older, I don't want to be disobedient to God's Word. I also do not want to support or condone heresy. A few ministers have told me don't expect change...and that there are no perfect assemblies. Grieved in my soul, Bereaniam. |
||||||
3 | Elders not a pastor should lead church | Bible general Archive 3 | Bereaniam | 176382 | ||
Hello my brother in Christ, Thanks for your note. It is very helpful to me at this time of spiritual crisis in my life. As to what you wrote about 2Tim. 4:3, I know that Paul by the Holy Spirit wrote "teacher". But, isn't a pastor a teacher? Today, I am amazed at how many offices one person can hold...they can be a pastor; apostle, if they go out and establish other churches; evangelist, when they travel to preach at other churches; and, some of them even prophelie...oops,I mean prophesy. I beg to differ with you about the structure of the church. Acts 20:17,18,28; 1Pet 5:1-3; James 5:14, et al clearly spell out who is to be over the church. 2Tim 2:11,12 tells women not to teach men. Paul tells the Corinthians when you come together one has a psalm, a doctrine, a tongue,a revelation...sounds like method, style, and structure to me. To reiterate from my previous note, don't red flags go up when you see the word "pastors" mention only once in the NT? Why are we so bent on doing our own thing? Why can't we just do what we read in the bible? What should be the final authority concerning the church...bible or tradition? You said the offices mentioned in scripture are not clearly defined...1Tim 3:1-13 and Titus 1:5-9 detail the qualifications of officers of the church. You also said, if I interpreted correctly, that culture dictates the style of church-life as we evolve. My very point! The time has come, and now is that we are not enduring sound doctrine, but teaching for doctrine the traditions of men. We may as well throw the bible away and go by customs and culture. Suppose (and it may not be too farfetched) our customs allow for polygamy or homosexual marriages...do we line up our church-life with the culture? Do you think that when men were moved by the Holy Spirit to write the bible that God did not know our culture would change? Did God forget to tell them that the 21st century Christians would be high tech, have liberated women, live in America where "more is never enough"? You said you didn't care about how many pastors we are suppose to have. I'm sure you are familiar with the Laodicean church in Revelation...well, I believe that describes the church today. We say we're rich (big fine buildings, pastors driving Bentleys, wearing 1000 dollar suits, rolex watches, etc.), but the bible said we are lukewarm, wretched, naked, and poor. We have an indifference to the scriptures...we are apathetic. How many people (Christian) do you encounter who know very little about the bible? I recently asked an elder where I assemble, who was Paul...his reply, "I really don't know...I need to study my bible more." I love you my brother...I really am searching...trying to resolve this issue. I am at a point where I don't know where to go on Sundays and Wednesdays. For the past 40 years, I can count on one hand how many times I have not gathered with believers. But now, I feel if I go I am condoning and financially supporting the heresy being practiced. His, Bereaniam |
||||||
4 | Elders not a pastor should lead church | Bible general Archive 3 | Bereaniam | 176383 | ||
Hello Doc, You are soooo deep! What's this orthopraxy...orthodoxy? Well, I'll have to research that later. All I am asking for is one, uno , 1 scripture from the Holy Bible that says we are to have 1, one, uno pastor. I understand that your Southern Baptists have historical reasons and confessions to have a "single, full-time pastor" (your words). What scriptures did they use? Now single means one, right? So why does your congregation have three full-time pastors? Are you all disobeying the "historic Baptists confessions"? I understand history...but, things change historically. That's why the Bible has to be the final authority. That's why I said the time would come when men would not endure sound doctrine...they start to use cultural changes, historical events,etc. to dictate church-life. No, there are no perfect assemblies...but at least we can establish from the scriptures that the word "pastors" probably was not to be the one person over the church. That is not rocket science! Some things are so clear in the bible that there is no need for a commentary. His, Bereaniam |
||||||
5 | Elders not a pastor should lead church | Bible general Archive 3 | Bereaniam | 176402 | ||
Hello Doc Again, Well, let's see if we can go back around this mountain one more time. This is not rocket science. And, you are deep, whether you think it or not. But, I do study my bible also. I asked for just one scripture that said one pastor should be over a congregation. You wrote, "How about some epistles?" I guess I was not specific enough. Give me a book, a chapter, and a verse that says one pastor should be over a congregation, please? You also said, "Look to the pastoral epistles of Paul". I did... that is where I found some of the scriptures that the government (polity) of the church should have egalitarian leadership. Titus 1:5, 1Tim 1:3. However, you know there are other scriptures that allude to the fact that elders were to feed, oversee, and pray for the sick of the church. You asked,"Who is to appoint elders?". New Testament authority says apostles appointed the elders. Today, we do our own thing through the flesh. Pastors submit resumes and have tryouts, my my my, how biblical. You also asked, "Who is to teach?". Tim, I am surprised at you for that question, because I know you read 1 Tim 3:2, Tit 1:9. When Peter said of the elders in 1Pet 5:1-4, "...feed the flock", do you think he meant teach them or take them to green pastures? I did not understand your question about who the recipients were. And of course the elders, who are given the oversight of the church would naturally be the ones to rebuke, and correct...which you know does not happen in most churches. Who knows anybody in the megachurches? Sunday after Sunday, they (many...not all) come, sing,look at the back of others heads, listen to a message, go home, live like the rest of the world until the next Sunday. Who really cares if they need correcting. Many ministers need rebuking...but who is going to do it? Anyway, keep your pastor on the pedestal, honor him, give him bonuses,raises, anniversary and birthday presents, send him off for R and R, let him take a Sabbatical if needed while the the less honorable member, 1Cor 12:23, is forgotten. We are suppose to be one body, but many members. Each member is not more important than the other...each has a job to do. But that is not the case in the 21st Century church, from my observation. Do you believe the words: pastor, bishop, shepherd, overseer, elder, presbytery, teacher, are synonyms and used interchangebly in the Bible? That may be why we are not on the same page. I hope to see you here, there, or in the air. May God bless you spiritually beyond what you can ask, think, or contain, Bereaniam |
||||||
6 | Elders not a pastor should lead church | Bible general Archive 3 | Bereaniam | 176406 | ||
Hello Tim, I really do appreciate you taking the time to address this note. It is very important to me at this time. You are so very right about not going beyond what the Bible says. No, the Bible does not say how many pastors/bishops/elders/ presbytery/overseers (I see the latter as all being the same office...how about you?) one church should have...but it always alluded to them in the plural...not one. The structure shows that apostles appointed elders to oversee the church. Deacons were different from the pastors/bishops/overseers/presbytery/elders. I do not know who appointed the deacons, but they were part of the structure. The scriptures I gave: Acts 20:17,18,28 was to establish that they were always referred to in the plural. What do you mean there is nothing said about what their duties/ministry was? Their ministry was to feed (teach) the flock; be in prayer;oversee them; they were warned to keep out the judaizers; lay hands on the sick; purge out leaven (immorality) among them; judge the saints...not go to unjust judge; counselled the saints; made sure the gifts were used properly, oversaw the Lords Supper; oversaw the collection to send to other churches in need, I could go on and on about their duties. Tim, The scriptures do not say how many "pastors" to have, that would depend on how large the church was during the 1st Century, but it clearly says there was more than one elder/pastor. So, we can obey that much, even if it is just two pastors/elders...but two who have the rule over the flock...not one lording over the people making autocratic dictatorial decisions for the flock. And no, it does not say how long those pastors can stay. The problem with the church today is that many pastors are not called to the ministry...they submit a resume, go to tryouts, and are hired by a board, elders, deacons, or just start their own church. I am sorry I missed your point about the cultural thing. You are right our culture has and will change...but we must adhere to the Bible. The Bible is the inerrant, inspired Word of God. God knew in the 21st Century what the culture would be like. You may not get "hung up" over how many pastors one congregation should have...but I see it as heresy when there is only one pastor/bishop/presbytery/elder/overseer per church.The Bible clearly says there was more than one. You don't have to be concerned about my being driven away from the church. I don't go to church...I am the church. I do gather with other believers at least three times per week. I can count on one hand the number of times I have missed a Sunday or Wednesday night service in the last forty years..plus Saturday night prayer. satan is not my father...God is. For me to Live, is Christ. I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, yet not I, but Christ lives in me. Now Tim, if you believe the scriptures say you can not be the only pastor at your church...how courageous can you be to allow one or more to equally oversee the flock? Search the scriptures Acts 11:30; 15:2, 4, 5, 22,23; 16:4; 21:18...pray for wisdom...seek counsel. Traditions of men started the one pastor, pyramid structure of the todays church. We are teaching for doctrine the commandments of men. Red flags do not go up for you when you call yourself a pastor and that word only appears one time in the NT? Love you in the Lord, Margaret |
||||||
7 | Elders not a pastor should lead church | Bible general Archive 3 | Bereaniam | 176408 | ||
Yes, 1st and 2Tim and Titus...right? Bereaniam |
||||||
8 | Elders not a pastor should lead church | Bible general Archive 3 | Bereaniam | 176468 | ||
Hello Kalos, my brother I am glad you have weighed in on this discussion. I do value your input. Sometimes I just assume too much! Did you read in my post that for the last 30 years or so, I can count on one hand the number of times I have missed a Sunday or Wednesday night service, Saturday night prayer, and Tuesday night Bible study. I do not assemble alone. But, I get your point. I was trying to stress the point that many people miss about "going to church", a building. I should have said, "We don't go to church...We are the church" . Thanks, my brother Bereaniam |
||||||
9 | Elders not a pastor should lead church | Bible general Archive 3 | Bereaniam | 176471 | ||
Tim, If you can not see that pastor, elder, overseer, presbytery are synonyms, we will never resolve this. Please do a word study on the latter list of terms and see that they are used interchangeably in the Bible. I do not know any other way to explain this to you. If someone else is reading this, please weigh in to help our brother Tim. I gave you a list of duties of the elders...what do you mean by "there are a few things...about the duties...based upon narrative passages." The "narrative passages" that you related to are scriptures... inspired Words of God. Paul said, "If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord" 1Cor 14:37. Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles...that's you, unless you are a Jew. Paul was given the words, straight from Jesus, on how to set up the church. To reiterate, he said the elders would be overseers. He outlined the qualifications of the elders. Peter said elders would be overseers of the church. You have been hired, chosen, appointed, or called to be the "pastor" of the believers where you are, right? So, you are the overseer, right? What is your "exact" job description? You said, "God doesn't give us an exact job job description." If God calls someone into the ministry, I would think when you pray and ask Him what to do "exactly", He would tell you. How specific do you want Him to be? Just the words: oversee and feed my flock seem to cover a lot of ground and easy to understand. I am glad you have many leaders for your church...the problem is that you also have a pyramid...with only one person at the top. The leadership is not egalitarian. You said the devil is getting me hung up over a nonessential point. The government and the way God intends for His church to be set up is nonessential, Tim? We may as well throw out the Bible and just "do church" based on what we think and feel. Paul said let all things be done decently and in order 1Cor 14:40. Even America's founding fathers realized that we had to have an organized government for this country to function. Tim, I am submitted to our Father, and I am sure you are too...always ready to have the eyes of our understanding enlightened. We are in Him and He is in you and me, Bereaniam p.s. The word "pastors", plural only appears once in the NT. p.s. |
||||||
10 | Elders not a pastor should lead church | Bible general Archive 3 | Bereaniam | 176482 | ||
Tim, Initially , I asked the question about the structure of the church because I was searching for an answer. I knew that this bible study forum would offer their expert insight and challenge me to study. Thank you so much for your patience with me. I just strive to be on the same page with my Father and Savior. (I pray the baby you went to visit, and the mom are healthy and happy). If you will read BradK posts...I like the concept he presents that a pastor/teacher is an iterant office just like the evangelist, prophet, and apostle. I never said deacon was synonymous with overseer. You said, "in Titus 1, overseer and elder seem to be listed as two separate offices." To further make my point about the words elder, overseer, bishop being synonyms...The KJV of the Bible uses bishop in Titus 1:7, the Amplified Bible uses bishop, the NAS version uses overseer, the NIV uses overseer, the Message Bible calls them church leaders. I have different versions of the Bible, but I use KJV most of the time. If Paul called for the elders of the church in Acts 20:17 to talk with them, and he is talking with them from verse 17-35, why do you think when he calls them overseers in verse 28 that he is talking to another group of people? You think that is a weak argument for saying elder is the same as overseer? The number of times we see words used in the Bible sometimes depends on what Concordance and what version of the Bible you are using. You said how pastors are selected is not given in the Bible...Eph 4:11,12 says He (Jesus) gave some...pastors for the perfecting of the saints. I believe that a pastor has to have a clear call from Jesus by the Holy Spirit to that ministry. How were you selected? You said the Bible does not say how many should oversee a church...no it doesn't. But to reiterate, it sure does make it clear that more than one person should be at the top. You said there are no commands to how many leaders and what kind of structure a church must have. Again, Paul says if you are spiritual, acknowledge that the things he writes to us are the commandments of God. 1Cor 14:37 Paul tells the Corinthians to let everything be done decently and in order. Our problem is that we are led by the flesh most of the time...not the Spirit. I believe, especially in America, many of us just do our own thing. The Holy Spirit is on a backburner. Is the present day church like the Laodicean Church? We think we're rich, have no need of anything...but we are actually poor, naked, wretched, left our first love. We need a revolution...then the revival can happen. May our Father bless you and the church where you gather with all spiritual blessings. Bereaniam |
||||||
11 | Elders not a pastor should lead church | Bible general Archive 3 | Bereaniam | 176483 | ||
Thanks Steve, I appreciate your input and insight. Bereaniam |
||||||
12 | Elders not a pastor should lead church | Bible general Archive 3 | Bereaniam | 176484 | ||
Tim, also please read what Steve wrote below. Bereaniam |
||||||
13 | Elders not a pastor should lead church | Bible general Archive 3 | Bereaniam | 176485 | ||
Tim, also please read what Steve (srbaegon) wrote below. Bereaniam |
||||||
14 | Is it disrespectful to not use a title | Bible general Archive 3 | Bereaniam | 177736 | ||
You said you use the title "Pastor" for those in your own (tradition). What does that mean? What do you think Paul meant when Jesus told him to write, "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the (tradition) of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ, Col 2:8? In Him, Bereaniam |
||||||
15 | Is it disrespectful to not use a title | Bible general Archive 3 | Bereaniam | 177737 | ||
Greetings Hank, Would it be disrespectful for you to call your pastor, "Dale", without saying Brother Dale? His, Bereaniam |
||||||
16 | Is it disrespectful to not use a title | Bible general Archive 3 | Bereaniam | 177744 | ||
Thanks for the reply Hank...I just wish that all ministers were as humble as yours. I am in the process of finding a Church where I can gather with other Believers. The ones that basically agree with my beliefs have ministers with the titles: bishop, reverend, or Dr. Ps 111:9 states, "...holy and reverend is His name". Why would a minister want to use what God said is His name? It's almost arrogant! I will keep looking. His, Bereaniam |
||||||
17 | Is it disrespectful to not use a title | Bible general Archive 3 | Bereaniam | 177748 | ||
Greetings WOS' The definition of "apostle" is messenger, he that is sent. Substituting that in the verse would look something like this: "...consider the (messenger, the one sent) and the High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus." Does that look like it can be used as a title? His, Bereaniam |
||||||
18 | Is it disrespectful to not use a title | Bible general Archive 3 | Bereaniam | 177750 | ||
Hi Doc, your pontification some times transcends my comprehension. Am I to understand that you said the English language is limited in expressing respect for ministers? I beg to differ with you if that is what you meant. The English language gives "men of the cloth" too, too many mechanisms for self-aggrandizement. They have many titles in front of their names; they are usually the CEO of the Church, more honor goes to them than the feeble, weak ones in 1Cor 12:23,24. We are all members of the body of Christ...He is the head of the Church. Not one member is more important than the other. Actually, 1Tim 5:17 states that double honor should go to the elders that rule well. Do you equate the office of an elder to the spiritual gift of pastor? We have discussed this before, but the word "pastor(s)" only appears once in the NT. So, why do you call the minister where you worship "pastor"? What is the biblical reference? Would he (or you) think you were being disrespectful if you called him by his first name only? His, Bereaniam |
||||||
19 | Is it disrespectful to not use a title | Bible general Archive 3 | Bereaniam | 177844 | ||
That's a great word, Mark. I pray that I can find a servant leader like your pastor. Thanks for the reply. His, Bereaniam |
||||||
20 | Preachers with titles wrong? | NT general Archive 1 | Bereaniam | 174022 | ||
Yes, Justme, it is a hard decision. I will miss many of my brothers and sisters with whom I fellowship. I also work with the children's ministry, and I will sorely miss the children. I have thought about visiting other fellowships, but I know there are no "perfect gatherings". I guess I am just seeking a confirmation. Thanks. His, Bereaniam |
||||||
Result pages: [ 1 2 3 4 5 ] Next > Last [5] >> |