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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | did the wine from the water make you dr | Bible general Archive 1 | laughlin | 987 | ||
Did Jesus turn the water into wine.As we know the wine of today? | ||||||
2 | did the wine from the water make you dr | Bible general Archive 1 | Morant61 | 10284 | ||
Greetings Laughlin! There are several misconceptions that modern readers tend to have concerning this issue. 1) The first is that the word "wine" in the Old and New Testaments always refers to an alcholic beverage. The fact is that in the Old Testament there are several words refering to a wide range of drinks, some of which contain no alcohol. In the New Testament, the primary word 'oinos' refers to a wide range of drinks as well. 2) The second is that the ancients had no way to keep fermentation from occuring. This is simply not true. The whole point of the parable of the wineskins is that putting new wine into a new wineskin will keep it from fermenting. Putting new wine into an old wineskin will cause it to ferment faster and ruin both the wine and the wineskin. 3) Thirdly, that wine was as strong as today's drinks. Naturally occuring wine, through fermentation only, is not very potent. Even the stong drinks of Scripture do not compare to our distilled drinks. Concerning the miracle of the wine, consider the following two quotes. In 1907, Dr. R.A. Torrey wrote: "The wine provided for the marriage festivities at Cana failed. A cloud was about to fall over the joy of what is properly a festive occasion. Jesus came to the rescue. He provided wine, but there is not a hint that the wine He made was intoxicating. It was a fewsh-made wine. New-made wine is never intoxicating. It is not intoxicating until sometime after the process of fermentation has set in. Fermentation is a process of decay. There is not a hint that our Lord produced alcohol, which is a product of decay and death. he produced a living wine uncontaminated by fermentation." |
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3 | did the wine from the water make you dr | Bible general Archive 1 | Tim Sheasby | 22657 | ||
In answer: 1. There are 3 words used in the OT for wine. Not a single one can be shown to imply non alcoholic grape juice. 2. The whole point of the parable of the wine skins is that in the early stages of fermentation considerably more gas is produced which would burst old, inflexible, skins. This would of course result in the skin being ruined and the wine being spilt and therefore ruined. 3. I live in Cape Town in the heart of the wine producing area of South Africa. A friend of mine consulted a local winemaker concerning the potency of New Testament wine. The winemaker theorised that the wine then may in fact have been considerably stronger than many wines of today. His theory is that the water in the wine might transpire through the skin leaving a more potent, thick, almost syrupy wine. That is theory but the same friend consulted a Rabbi at one of the Universities in Israel (I can get the names and addresses if you want) who believed that New Testament wines may have been as strong as 17 or 18 percent As you point out, those drinks do not compare with the distilates of today but they certainly do compare with the wines produced today. It was as strong as or stronger than todays naturally fermented wines. |
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4 | did the wine from the water make you dr | Bible general Archive 1 | Morant61 | 22670 | ||
Greetings Tim! It is good to hear from my fellow Timothy! Let me touch on your points quickly. 3) This point is in dispute. I have read other positions on the potency of wine. No one knows for sure, but most people today who defend drinking aren't wanting to drink wine. They want the stronger stuff! :-) 2) I agree, but there also is another point to the parable. The new skins would also slow down the process of fermentation and presevere the wine longer. Many people say that the ancients had no way to stop fermentation, which is true, but they could and did slow it down. 1) There are actually 11 words used in the Old Testament for wine and 4 in the New Testament. The usage demonstrates that most of the words can indeed refer to non-alcohol, whether it be fresh juice or the grapes themselves. Here is a word study which I posted on John 2:1 which demonstrates this point. ******************************************** There are 11 words in the Old Testament which are translated "wine." There are 4 words in the New Testament which are translated "wine." Each of the words have slightly different meanings and can refer to the product of the grape in each of it’s various stages. The Strong’s numbers are included for each word. Old Testament Words 1) yayin (03196): This is the most common word in the Old Testament. It is used 140 times. It can refer to either a fermented or unfermented beverage. One example of a fermented beverage would be Gen. 9:21, where Noah became drunk. However, Jer. 40:10 uses this word to refer to the harvest of grapes, which is to be stored. One scholar, Dr. Robert Teachout, estimates that the word is used 71 times to refer to an unfermented juice and 70 times as a fermented beverage. 2) tiyrowsh (08492): This is the second most common word in the Old Testament. It is used 38 times. It always refers to a fresh pressed juice, with one possible exception. 3) shekar (07941): This word is used 23 times in the Old Testament. It seems to always refer to a fermented drink and it only used in two ways. The first is in condemnations and the second is in drink offerings (poured on the offering). 4) yeqeb (03342): This word is used 16 times and always refers to unfermented wine. It usually refers to the presses themselves or the fresh product of the presses. 5) Õashiyshah (0809): This word is used only 4 times. It is always translated by the KJV as a "flagon of wine." However, more modern translations translate it as "a raisin cake." Thus, it would refer to grapes themselves, not a beverage. 6) chamar (02562): This word is only used 6 times in the Old Testament. It is actually an Aramaic word. The context makes it difficult to decide how it is used. It seems to be used in both ways. It’s 2 occurances in Ezra probably refer to unfermented wine, while it’s 4 occurances in Daniel probably refer to fermented. 7) gath (01660): This word is only used 5 times. It always refers to the press itself. 8) mamcak (04469): Only used twice. Seems to always refer to a fermented drink. 9) cobeÕ (05435): Only used three times. Seems to refer to a fermented drink, but one which is soured or diluted. 10) chemer (02561): Only used twice. Always refers to unfermented fresh juice. 11) aciyc (06071): This word is used five times. It seems to refer to an unfermented sweetened or spiced drink, with one possible exception. New Testament Words 1) oinos (3631): This word is used 33 times in the New Testament. It is comparable to ‘yayin’ in that it can refer to either fermented or unfermented wine. The prime example being Mt. 9:17, where the fresh new wine is to be put into a new bottle to keep it from fermenting. 2) gleukos (1098): This word is only used in Acts 2:13. Some have said that since the crowd was accusing them of being drunk that this had to be a fermented wine. However, the crowd was mocking them and the word usually refers to a fresh pressed juice. It could have been that they had a reputation for only drink fresh pressed juice and the crowd was making fun of them for it. 3) paroinos (3943): This word is only used twice and both times in a prohibition against drinking. It most likely refers to a fermented beverage. 4) oinophlugia (3632): This word is only used in 1 Peter 4:3 and refers to an excess of wine that some of engaged in in their past lives as unbelievers. It most likely refers to fermented wine. Conclusion: It simply is not true that "wine" always refers to an alcoholic beverage. It can refer to grapes. It can refer to fresh juice. It can refer to strong drink. It has a wide range of meanings. ********************************************** Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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5 | did the wine from the water make you dr | Bible general Archive 1 | Tim Sheasby | 22679 | ||
I stand corrected on the number of word translated "wine". However, the 3 principal words that concern us in the Old Testament are yayin (03196) wine, tiyrowsh (08492) sweet wine, and shekar (07941) strong drink. According to Rabbinic tradition (Talmud and Mishna) the product of the grape vine was called shekar from pressing until it was 40 days old (and already intoxicating). From 40 days old untill it was 3 years old it was yayin (and now totally intoxicating) and after this it was called shekar. There are places where the context does not indicate the intoxicating value of these beverages but I do not know of any example where they are CLEARLY not alcoholic. I do not know where you found the information that says they used wine skins to slow fermentation. Please let me know your source as this is something I would like to follow up myself. In the New testament there are 2 words, Oinos and Gleukos, that relate to wine. The other 2 words are derivatives of oinos. At the time of Pentecost in Acts there was no way they could have HAD freshly squeezed juice. By then the 'gleukos' must have been at least partially fermented. Certainly the 2 derived words, paroinos and oinophlugia seem to refer to a fermented wine, possibly very strongly fermented. Which brings us back to 'oinos'. In fact, as you mention, this could refer to anything from freshly squezed grape juice to fermented wine. It seems the ancients did not understand the mechanics of fermentation (that yeast caused it to take place) but they certainly knew that something changed that fresh juice into wine. If wine is not always alcoholic (though in the case of the Hebrew word 'Yayin' this cannot be supported) neither is it always NOT alcoholic. The wine Jesus made at Cana was not only alcoholic wine, but the best alcoholic wine ever. The master of ceremonies testifies to this. I am writing from work so some of my material is not at hand and my memory is not always perfect. I will try to remember to bring in better documentation and update this posting tomorrow. Tim Sheaby |
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6 | did the wine from the water make you dr | Bible general Archive 1 | Morant61 | 22686 | ||
Greetings Tim! Concerning the three principle words, there are indeed places where the words refer to non-alcoholic products. For example: 1) Yayin: Is used in Jer. 40:10 to refer to the products of the harvest which are then to be placed in their vessels. Clearly, they could not be fermented until after they are placed in the vessels, they were freshly pressed. In Num. 6:4, the word refers to the vine itself. Is. 16:10 uses the word to refer to the juice in the press. These are just a few examples where the context clearly indicates that the word can refer to something other than alcohol. 2) Tirosh is used of the product of the vine. In Prov. 3:10 it is used of the product of the presses. In Is. 65:8, it refers to the grapes still in the cluster. 3) Shekar seems to alway refer to fermentated wine. It is used 23 times, but only in two ways. It is either mentioned in reference to drink offerings or condemned. Concerning the wedding, the text never says that the master of ceremonies testified that it was "the best alcoholic wine ever." This is an assumption about a word which could mean either. Concerning the wineskins reference in history, I'll have to dig for it. I've got about half of my books still in boxes. I remember one reference was found in the book, "Alcohol: The Beloved Enemy", by Jack Van Impe. Have fun at work! :-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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