Results 1 - 9 of 9
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Lionstrong, who is the world? | Eph 3:6 | CDBJ | 18899 | ||
I think that in a way, that you are both right, now how is that for openers? The word for atonement in the Old Testament was KAPHAR, i.e. a covering; the sin was covered, but it was still there, until God's Messiah would come. The word that we have in the New Testament for atonement is KATALLAGE in the Greek, which is derived from KATALLASSO, to reconcile. Do you remember what John the Baptist said when he saw Jesus coming? (Behold the Lamb of God who covers our sin) ((NOT)) Behold the Lamb of God, that TAKES AWAY the sin of the World, it's gone. So now the issue isn't sin anymore, John 16:7-9, but Jesus. The only sin that can condemn a person now it the one that the Holy Spirit is convicting the World of, which is rejecting Jesus as their Savior. The only sin that Christ couldn't and didn't pay for is the sin of rejection. WOW, what a plan, and God the Father even has to reveal this to us! We that know this plan can't praise Him enough, Hallelujah what a savior! God is not willing that any should parish but that all would come to a change of mind about His Son Jesus the Christ. My two cents worth, CDBJ | ||||||
2 | Lionstrong, who is the world? | Eph 3:6 | Lionstrong | 18917 | ||
We're both right...in a way, BJ? Jesus atoned for all sinners AND he did not atone for all sinners..... The OT and NT meanings are too close, "covering" and "take away" (in both the sin is not seen). So, this is still a contradiction. Therefore they cannot both be true. Good try, though, BJ! Peace, Lionstrong |
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3 | Lionstrong, this is not universalism. | Eph 3:6 | Bill Mc | 18921 | ||
Dear Lionstrong, Let me try to clarify my view here. I'll summarize as much as possible: 1) Salvation is not just being forgiven for sins (unrighteous acts). Salvation is being saved by the indwelling life of Christ, not by reconciliation - Rom 5:10. Therefore, Christ's propitiation for the whole world is NOT salvation. It is forgiveness for all sins (unrighteous acts) for all people for all time. It is reconciliation. Now, if I believed that salvation was only the forgiveness of sins, then I would be supporting universalism - everyone is saved because everyone is forgiven. I AM NOT saying that at all. 2) The forgiveness that Christ provided at the cross is received at conversion. It is part of redemption - Eph 1:7; Col 1:14. Though it was provided at the cross, not everyone has accepted Christ's redemption (reconciliation) and appropriated the forgiveness that has been provided - Rom 5:11. 3) Therefore everyone in the world for all time is forgiven for their unrighteous acts but not for unbelief in Christ. Unbelief in Christ cannot be forgiven - it must be repented of. This is the world's sin (not sins, plural) - John 16:8,9. This is what God's wrath will be poured out on as 1 Thess says, unbelief in Christ. 4) So there is no contradiction. The cross provides reconciliation for all but we need to receive it. Christ's death provides forgiveness. And Christ's resurrection, imparted to us through the Holy Spirit, provides life to His formerly dead creation. So we are forgiven and then given life. The we are saved. Does this help? In Christ, Bill Mc |
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4 | Lionstrong, this is not universalism. | Eph 3:6 | Reformer Joe | 18927 | ||
justification: being declared righteous That is salvation. Christ's righteousness imputed to our account. Those who are justified are saved. Those who are not justified are not saved. We have two options: 1. Christ died for a particular group of individuals. Those who will come to faith in Christ are the only ones whose sins are paid for, and those who die without Christ will pay the penalty for their own sins. 2. Christ paid the penalty for the sin of all human beings, and those who die without Christ pay it again. Double jeopardy. In the case of these individuals, Christ suffered needlessly. Hardly sounds like justice to me. --Joe! |
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5 | Lionstrong, this is not universalism. | Eph 3:6 | Morant61 | 18942 | ||
Greetings Joe! One quick question and one quick comment, if I may! 1) Don't Calvinists believe in a logical order of events in salvation? I've always understood the Calvinist position to be: Effectual Calling, Conversion, Regeneration. Conversion includes: Repentance and faith. So, even the elect would not be saved until the end of the process. Is this a correct understanding? At which point do you believe that justification takes place? (Sorry, that was more than one question) :-) 2) There is a third option to your list: Forgiveness of sins is a gift which must be received. Those who receive it are saved, those who reject it must pay the price for their own sins. Thus, they are lost. In my humble opinion, this option is more just than only dying for some and more faithful to the Scriptures which clearly say that Christ died for the world. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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6 | Lionstrong, this is not universalism. | Eph 3:6 | Reformer Joe | 19000 | ||
Tim: Here we are again! I REALLY tried this time to keep out of the "5 points" discussion, but every time I try to get out, they pull me back in! :) In the Reformed position, there is a certain sense in which we were saved 2000 years ago at Calvary, for that is when the debt was paid for our sins: "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." --Romans 5:8 In addition, regeneration (rebirth) logically precedes faith in the Reformed view, since our spirits must be made alive in order for us to stop rejecting the gospel. Temporally speaking, they are simulatneous; that is, we place our trust in Christ at the same time that we are spitirually regenerated. The question is which is the "domino that knocks the other one over." The Reformed position states that God is the unilateral cause of us placing our faith in His Son: "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead," --1 Peter 1:3 Now we know Ephesians 2:8-9. In my perspective, this is the expanded, full version of the evangelical idea "justification by faith." We are saved BY God's grace THOUGH faith in Christ alone. All of this is the gift of God. So grace is from God, and faith is a gift from God that we ourselves place in Christ. Therefore, I hold that our justification was planned in eternity past, secured in 1st-century Judea, and applied to us (made manifest) when we were regenrated by the Holy Spirit of God, placing faith in Christ. The tricky thing, Tim, is when we start talking about an aspect of God which you often have brought up: his timelessness. If we ask, "When does God consider us righteous?" we have a hard time answering that. Those who were God's people before Christ's arrival, were they viewed as righteous despite the fact that Christ had not actually atoned for our sins in time and space? (Paul and James seem to indicate that Abraham was.) In our cases, we know that we are "positionally" righteous with God, even though practically speaking we are painfully far away from that as a reality. We also probably agree that while we are justified, God also disciplines us and does indeed see our daily sins against Him. By that I mean that our sinful actions are not "ignored" by God or "invisible" to Him as I hear too many Christians implying; He does indeed care how we live out our Christian lives. So from the perspective of a timeless God, it could be said in a certain sense that outside of time/space, we stand as justified; just as the time/space event of our conversion did not (in an eternal sense) move us out of the unjustified category to the justified one. On the human side of things, justification was made manifest in my life a hanful of years ago. In a historical sense it occurred at Golgotha. From an eternal perspective, God has never counted my sins against me. How is that for an answer? My head is spinning now. I think I need to stop. Happens every time when finite me tries to grasp the infinite. One last point: I do not hold your third option as an alternative, since it still comes to the same conclusion: Christ paid for the sins of those who will be paying for them themselves. And if we are talking about what the most just situation is, we all go to Hell. The Reformed view is not injustice vs. justice; it is mercy vs. justice. The only difference is that we hold that God is not required to show mercy to all (and the Bible clearly shows that He doesn't in the lives of many many individuals and nations). Eagerly awaiting your response! --Joe! |
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7 | Lionstrong, this is not universalism. | Eph 3:6 | CDBJ | 19010 | ||
Hi Joe, in regard to the one point that you made about regeneration before faith. There is something that I believe and I am not even sure where it came from so please don't back me in a corner on this one. The unbeliever can't understand anything from God as you stated because his spirit needs to be born again, and I Cor. 2:14 will back that up. I have in the back of my head some place that the only thing that an unbeliever can understand is the Gospel and only then because God the Holy Spirit reveals it to them. Maybe via John 16:8-11 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. It seems like I have been using this verse a lot lately; well what do you think? You don't have to respond to this if you don't want to; it is just for a train-of-thought. CDBJ |
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8 | Lionstrong, this is not universalism. | Eph 3:6 | Reformer Joe | 19023 | ||
CDBJ: I think that this is an excellent passage to examine. Would you agree that the coming event that Christ is referring to is Pentecost? John 16:7 seems to indicate that this is the case. At Pentecost, the Holy Spirit came, but only to those who are believers. We nowhere get an indication that after Pentecost every human in the whole world suddenly was convicted of their sinfulness. However, by the indwelling Holy Spirit in the lives of true believers, the watching world is convicted of their sin, the righteousness of God is demonstrated in the lives of believers (since Christ is gone and we see him no more), and the judgment of Satan and his children is proclaimed. Via the Holy Spirit's indwelling and sanctification, we are walking billboards of the truth. What I cannot see from the whole counsel of God is the idea that before Pentecost that judgment and knowledge of sin was not present. That would seemingly contradict Romans 1:18-32: "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse." --Romans 1:20 "and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them." --Romans 1:32 What do you think of John 16:8-10 in light of such verses? What could Christ possibly have meant if the knowledge of God's law has been present from the beginning? I think that this is a good point of discussion for the Study Bible Forum! --Joe! |
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9 | Lionstrong, this is not universalism. | Eph 3:6 | CDBJ | 19035 | ||
Jo, that is a great concept I couldn't tell you how many time that I have read those verses and I have never looked at it in that light. It just goes to show you that His word is alive. I think you might be on to something here but I would like to see a whole new thread on this. Please let me know, if you would, via e-mail when you do it so that I don't miss it. It is very interesting at this point, and I can't see anything wrong with it. I must say that if that is the case, I have been teaching something that isn't there. You know there is a verse in Psalm 119: 160 NASV that says, the sum of Your Word is truth. Sometimes it is hard to see the whole picture with our finite minds. Yours in Christ, CDBJ |
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