Results 1 - 6 of 6
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Lionstrong, this is not universalism. | Eph 3:6 | Bill Mc | 18975 | ||
Dear Joe, Salvation is not just being forgiven. Salvation is the impartation of eternal LIFE. Jesus did not come to just provide forgiveness for our sins. He came that we might have LIFE (zoe), eternal life. "I come that you might have LIFE, and LIFE abundantly." "He who has the Son has the LIFE, he who does not have the Son of God does not have the LIFE." "I AM the Way, the Truth, and the LIFE." "I AM the resurrection and the LIFE." "You search the scriptures because you think that in them you'll find eternal LIFE, but you won't come to ME." Salvation is being saved from the wages of sin, spiritual death, by the free gift of God, eternal LIFE. This LIFE is imparted by the Holy Spirit to our spirit. "The Spirit is LIFE. The flesh counts for nothing." This is exactly why sins had to be forgiven. If our sins had not been forgiven, the first time we, as Christians, sinned after receiving God's Spirit, He would depart from us. Now Christ can say, "I'll never leave you or forsake you," because the only thing that could make Him do so, sin, has been eternally dealt with by the cross and Christ's blood. Joe, this is why your position cannot be true. Forgiveness is offered to the whole world. Salvation (LIFE) is offered to the whole world. But we must receive it. It's a gift. Forgiveness is a gift and so is righteousness before God. But, Joe, for a gift to be effectual, it must be offered by the Provider and received by the recipient. Forgiveness deals with our sins. It takes them away. But God's LIFE deals with the sinner, "While we were still sinners, God made us ALIVE together with Jesus Christ." In Christ, Bill Mc |
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2 | Lionstrong, this is not universalism. | Eph 3:6 | Reformer Joe | 19019 | ||
Bill: Thanks for your reply. You are absolutely, 100 percent correct in saying that Christ came to bring us life. The question is, however, what was standing in the way of that life? You make the point yourself: sin. The very meaning of the term "salvation" means that there is something we have to be saved FROM. That is our sin. Forgiveness comes via a sinless Christ's substitutionary death, the instrument of our justification. I am not sure what the point is you are trying to make here, Bill. Maybe I am just not understanding how what you have written in the first two paragraphs of this post is different from what I believe. My original point was that salvation and justification are synonmymous, since we as Christians were SAVED from the consequences of our sin 2000 years ago in Judea. While the indwelling Spirit is a blessing and an ever-present help for Christians, it is not that indwelling which provides our salvation. Otherwise, how do we explain that in most pre-Passion cases, believers in the coming Messiah were NOT indwelt by the Holy Spirit (King David and John the Baptist being two notable exceptions)? Most of those who will be in Heaven with us who lived before Christ's arrival did not have Him living inside them; yet they are justified/saved. Pre-Pentecost saints and post-Pentecost saints are both justified; otherwise they would not be in Heaven. That's why I hold that the Holy Spirit's presence in us and also the rich inheritance that we as believers are promised in Scripture are indeed gifts of our loving and gracious God, but that those are abundant gifts based on our adoption as sons, a separate act from forgiveness of our sins. In theory, we could have been offered forgiveness (i.e. salvation from Hell) and assigned a place with the servants rather than a place at the Lord's Table. We would still be just as saved, just not as blessed. Thanks be to God that He has done so much more! --Joe! |
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3 | Lionstrong, this is not universalism. | Eph 3:6 | Bill Mc | 19034 | ||
Dear Joe, We're closer in our views than probably either of us realize. But if forgiveness alone were the defining issue, then Christ died needlessly. The OT Jew had a system in place for being forgiven. They knew what forgiveness from God was. The sacrifices and the Day of Atonement, from a practical viewpoint, provided forgiveness. If this is the only problem between God and man, man's unrighteous acts, his sins, then the OT sacrifices could have just continued without God ever instituting a New Covenant. But I think you would agree that the forgiven OT Jew could not go into the Holy of Holies. Forgiveness and justification are not the same thing. Forgiveness deals with our sins. Justification deals with who we are. Forgiveness in the OT covered, atoned, for sins. But it could not make anyone righteous. Righteousness was credited to OT believers on the basis of faith. But they were never MADE righteous in their spirits. Forgiven? Yes. Saved by faith? Yes. Righteous? Only credited. In the NT, the believer is not only forgiven, he is made righteous as a gift. At conversion, our spirits are created in righteousness and holiness. That is the only reason that the writer of Hebrews says that we can now go into the Holy of Holies, that we are now the temple of God. "Do you not know that you are a temple? The temple of God is holy and that is what you are." We don't earn it. It is a gift of righteousness. Because we are in Christ, we are what He is in spirit. We are one spirit with Him. So, yes, the NT believer is forgiven but he is also justified (made righteous before and by God). We have this treasure in earthen vessels that the OT believer did not know. God indwells us. Therefore, brother, what I was saying in my original post is that, though everyone's sins are forgiven, not everyone is justified by faith in Christ's sacrificial work. I was trying to clarify a misunderstanding that says this: Salvation is being forgiven for your sins, Therefore not everyone is forgiven because that would mean universal salvation and we know that that conclusion is not true. That is why salvation is more than forgiveness. It is eternal life. We are saved FROM the wages of sin, spiritual death, separation from God, by the gift of God, eternal life, union with God. Forgiveness was provided to remove the sin issue between God and man so that when God imparts His life to the believer, it is indeed eternal. Justification provides that righteousness that God requires. You're right, brother, God has done so much more! I hope this clarifies my view. In Christ, Bill Mc |
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4 | Lionstrong, this is not universalism. | Eph 3:6 | Reformer Joe | 19054 | ||
Bill: Justification is a legal declaration. Nothing more. That was the view in Paul's day as well as ours. It does not mean "being made righteous." The view that actual righteousness is infused into us is the Roman Catholic view, not the view of Scripture. One of the greatest points of conflict between Martin Luther and the Pope was precisely on this point. We are not saved because God has made us inherently righteous, Luther argued, but rather because God has declared us righteous on account of Christ (this is known as forensic justification). The Old Testament sacrifices never took away individual sins, only the Atonement that they pre-figured. It is Christ that has always been the sole source of justification: "For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins." --Hebrews 10:4 I suggest that you are defining justification out of the legal context in which Paul was working, since it means precisely that we are declared righteous. In the case of the Christian, that justification occurs solely on the fact that Christ foreign righteousness is imputed to us (put on our account). Our record of wrongs and Christ's "switch places," so to speak. I do understand your position, Bill. Most of the pastors that I have sat under in my life had been Dallas Theological Seminary-trained ones, just as I am sure that yours is. I became a Christian while a regular attender of a Bible church and have spent most of my Christian life in dispensationalist circles. I have many, many friends who share your view. And, while I consider you all to be members of Christ's body, I also know that the Dispensationalist view is a very recent development in church history (as in the last 150 years) and holds a viewpoint contrary to almost every major evangelical theologian in church history. Now that in itself does not mean that this view is wrong, but one really has to wonder how so many learned men of God over the last 2000 years missed this until the 1830's. I would encourage you to examine some alternative viewpoints, even if it is only to understand and be able to refute the critics of DTS teachings. --Joe! |
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5 | Joe, how righteous are you? | Eph 3:6 | Bill Mc | 19122 | ||
Dear Joe, I agree that justification is a legal declaration, but that does not mean that it is not practical or real. You rightly speak of our records of wrong and Christ's record of righteousness switching places. So, in practical terms, I am declared righteous before God. This means that that is how God sees me, right? It would not benefit me in the least if God declared me righteous and then said, "Well, Bill, I've declared you righteous, but you're not really that way. I'm just pretending that you are for legal purposes." God, brother, does not pretend. God does not see something that is not there. God's view is truth. If God declares you righteous, it is because that is how He sees you -righteous. He declares you righteous because that is what He makes you, not because He is pretending. Say that I stand before God guilty of all my sin. God says, "Bill, the wages of sin is death and that is what you deserve. My standard is complete righteousness and you do not meet it. So I sentence you to death and you will be separated from Me forever." Then, from the sidelines, Christ speaks up and says, "Father, because I love Bill, I will take Bill's sentence. You may declare Me guilty in his place and exact his death sentence upon Me...but in return, because I am innocent and righteous, You must declare Bill innocent and righteous." God, being a just Judge, says that that trade is equitable. So Christ takes my sin and punishment and God declares me innocent and righteous. Now, when I leave that chamber, am I innocent and righteous in God's sight? Christ was made to be sin that I might become His righteousness, right? To imply that just because a truth is a legal declaration, that it is not practical is an insult to the judge and jury. If a judge and jury finds that an accused person is not guilty of a crime and they make that pronouncement 'not guilty', then that person is for all purposes, legally, practically, positionally, experientially 'not guilty.' The very reason that the accused is not guilty is because the jury or judge has made that determination. He is pronounced 'not guilty' because that is what he is, not because the judge and jury are pretending or 'just see Him that way.' Can I ask, out of curiosity, how righteous are you, Joe? If, perchance, God called you home right now, only the righteous can enter heaven, right? So how righteous are you right now on Oct 14, 2001? By Bible, not my church, not my pastor, not DTS, not dispensationalism, says that righteousness is a gift - Rom 5:17. Joe, have you received that gift? If you have received it, how can you make yourself more righteous than what Christ has made you? By Bible, not my church, not my pastor, not DTS, not dispensationalism, says that Christ's obedience has made me righteous - Rom 5:19. When does that happen, in your opinion? By Bible, not my church, not my pastor, not DTS, not dispensationalism, says that I have become the righteousness of God in Christ - 2 Cor 5:21. If I am in Christ, then I am what He is. Are you in Him, Joe? If so, how righteous are you? By Bible, not my church, not my pastor, not DTS, not dispensationalism, says that my new self has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth - Eph 4:24. Was your new self (2 Cor 5:17) created this way, Joe, or are you seeking to establish your own righteousness? By Bible, not my church, not my pastor, not DTS, not dispensationalism, says that my righteousness is not from my own works but that I have received it through faith in Christ. It comes FROM God to me, not from me because of my works - Phil 3:9. Joe, if you are not currently righteous, why not? It is a gift, it is free, it comes from Christ (not the Law), He made you that way. Have you received it? Righteous in Christ, Bill Mc |
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6 | Joe, how righteous are you? | Eph 3:6 | Reformer Joe | 19214 | ||
Bill: These are great questions, and were addressed between Martin Luther and the Catholic Church during the Protestant Reformation. You write: "So, in practical terms, I am declared righteous before God. This means that that is how God sees me, right?" God sees me clothed in Christ's righteousness (cf. Zechariah 3). He knows that there is no righteousness in my own standing, but I have a FOREIGN righteousness, a righteousness not my own. You would agree that God still realizes that we sin, right? He would not be omniscient if He couldn't "see" that. You wrote: "It would not benefit me in the least if God declared me righteous and then said, 'Well, Bill, I've declared you righteous, but you're not really that way. I'm just pretending that you are for legal purposes.'" This was precisely Rome's argument against Luther. They accused him of fabricating a "legal fiction." However, as Luther stated, God is not pretending that we are righteous in ourselves. God looks at Christ's sacrifice as sufficient payment for our sins, and Christ's righteousness as our own. That is not to say that we are PRACTICALLY righteous, because you and I and God know that we still commit sins on a painfully frequent basis. This is what Luther meant by the phrase "simul iustus et peccator" -- at the same time just and a sinner. We have been declared righteous, but we have not yet been MADE righteous. Being forgiven does not make us intrinsically better, although the Spirit of God works within us to gradually make us more like Christ in practice -- sanctification. I agree wholeheartedly that salvation is by grace alone through faith alone through Christ alone. Yet again I emphatically state that the Protestant Reformation was anything but a defense of works-righteousness. I simply disagree with the anti-Reformation view of Rome that we are actually, instantly transformed into righteous people rather than declared so on the basis of Christ's righteousness. To answer your question, on October 14, I am presented before God as righteous by Him in whom I have placed my faith. I am more intrisically righteous, thanks to the Spirit's work within me, than I was on the day of my conversion; and I look forward to being truly righteous in my own right when I am glorified before my holy God. --Joe! |
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