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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | What if willfully return to a sinning li | Eph 1:11 | mark d seyler | 141409 | ||
Hi EdB, Do I understand Spurgeon correctly, that he is saying that this warning is for something which in fact will never happen? Or am I missing something here? Love in Christ, Mark |
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2 | What if willfully return to a sinning li | Eph 1:11 | EdB | 141430 | ||
Mark That is what he is saying and his exegesis is correct I just think he came to the wrong conclusion. The point I'm making with this passage is that it is definitely talking about a saved (born again believer) and it says 'if' they fall away there is no return. Spurgeon takes this "if" as an impossible situation. However I say if in fact the "if" is an impossible situation there would be no reason to suggest it. Therefore no purpose in including in scripture. I believe Spurgeon reached a faulty conclusion adjusting scripture not to what it is saying be to his belief at it is impossible reject Jesus after having been in relationship with Him. Rejection of God by believers of God has been a theme down through scripture. Starting with Adam, climaxing with Judas' rejection of Christ and continuing through Paul's complaint of various former disciples that had left the faith. If Adam, in a state of perfection, could leave the relationship of God in exchange for sin why should we find it so hard to consider it possible today. Than constant retort of "works" rings silent when we truly understand Grace. Grace has a requirement. That is faith (John 3:16). Grace is a gift, a gift that must be received by faith, but also a gift that must be retained by faith. When faith ceases the gift of grace is laid aside. It wasn't lost, it wasn't stolen, it wasn't taken, it was laid down. Go back to the story of the fall in the garden we see Eve deceived but what is the case of Adam? No where in the account of the fall do we see Adam being tempted, deceived, or tricked, it says the woman gave to Adam and he ate. It was a conscious decision to reject his relationship with God. If Adam could do it why do we toy with thoughts we can't? Do we honestly say that, at that moment, man was changed from free willed being into a being with no choice of which we will do love or hate God for all of eternity? If so why even suggest "if's"? There would be no "if's”. Life death and how we live it would be cut and dried. It would matter not how we lived, desired to live or even what we had faith in, since it had already been decided for us. That simply is not what the whole of scripture suggests nor do the lives, deaths of saint and sinners with their examples of faith and doubt show us. That to me is where Spurgeon's whole argument falls apart. My fear is not whether your right and I'm wrong. My biggest fear is if your wrong and I'm right. Then there will be many people that have heard the same message your giving and expecting to be received into eternity and find Jesus spews them from his mouth. Matthew 22:11-14 (NKJV) 11 "But when the king came in to see the guests, he saw a man there who did not have on a wedding garment. 12 "So he said to him, 'Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment?' And he was speechless. 13 "Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' 14 "For many are called, but few are chosen." As I said it is silly to argue this with you, since if your right, heaven will have more people than I expect and that is a good thing. However if I'm right there may be consequences for those that teach this doctrine that I would rather not even think about. Since I’m sure I can never convince you otherwise walk the path your on my friend, if your right you have no other choice, if I’m right I pray God’s mercy. EdB |
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3 | What if willfully return to a sinning li | Eph 1:11 | mark d seyler | 141433 | ||
Hi Ed, You have said much to respond to. There is an extreme responsibility to those who would teach others, and I feel that responsibilty very much. A fundamental aspect of this whole discussion is the true state of those we designate as being born again. If you are right, there are more born again on earth, but less of them make it to heaven. If I am right, there are less born again on earth, but all make it. I do not say to the person who has rejected Christ "Its okay, you're actually still saved". I do not say to the person who is ok with their sin "Don't worry, you are eternally secure." I say to them both - examine yourself to see if you are really in the faith! People may look saved. I can be fooled. If they do not pass the Biblical test, then I don't believe they are saved. I imagine you might say that they are saved, but have turned their back on their salvation and left it. One thing about Adam, though. He was innocent, but he did not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and the incorruptilbe seed, the Word of God, giving him rebirth to a new nature. Being reborn, we do not merely return to the state Adam was in, we become more. I have to consider this is light of several other verses that say we will not walk away, or reject Him. (please see my last post to Tim) I can see how this passage could be written of those living during the millenial kingdom (as in my earlier post). That is how this makes the most sense to me. I see no call to argue or debate this with you, I think we will both agree with this: If a person is living in unrepented sin, is rejecting the message of God's Holy Word, is not living a life ruled by Jesus, they are in danger of eternal hellfire, no matter what prayers, works, claims of faith, they may have done in the past! Love in Christ, Mark |
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