Results 1 - 11 of 11
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | What if willfully return to a sinning li | Eph 1:11 | EdB | 141290 | ||
Hebrews 6:4-6 Hebrews 10:26-31 answers that question. EdB |
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2 | What if willfully return to a sinning li | Eph 1:11 | mark d seyler | 141303 | ||
Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this will we do, if God permit. 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. 7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: 8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. 9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. This is a passage that seems to plainly state that the born again believer can fall away without hope of return. Following are verses 4-6 from the Young’s Literal Transalation. Heb 6:4 “for it is impossible for those once enlightened, having tasted also of the heavenly gift, and partakers having became of the Holy Spirit, and did taste the good saying of God, the powers also of the coming age, and having fallen away, again to renew them to reformation, having crucified again to themselves the Son of God, and exposed to public shame.” There are a few things that stand out to me about this passage. In vs. 1-3, we are given a list of the “principles of the doctrine of Christ”, the foundation of repentance and faith (how we come to Christ), the doctrines of baptisms and laying on of hands (empowering our life in Christ), and resurrection and judgement (the end of the Age, the result of our life in Christ). The writer says they will leave these to go on to completion, if God permit, “For”, vs. 4, or “because, it is impossible for those once enlightened. . .” as if this were a doctrine outside of those he listed in the previous verses (leaving these, we will go on to…), one not belonging to this age. The next thing I see is in vs. 5, as the writer names the circumstances of those who would fall away. They have tasted of the powers of the of the age to come. Campare this to the following statement. “They have felt the accelleration of the 2010 Mercedes.” The only people capable of feeling the accelleration of a 2010 Mercedes are those living in the last half of 2009 or later. In vs. 6 the writer says “if they shall fall away” - this is not being viewed as a personal danger to the writer. The next thing I see is that they have “put Jesus to open shame”, or literally shown Him publicly in infamy. My understanding of this is as if to say they thumb their nose at Him face to face. This would go along with a Millenial timeframe, when Jesus will personally, openly rule. Finally, in vs. 9, the writer says that these are not the things that accompany salvation. 1John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. The born again cannot fall away, according to this verse, therefore, these cannot be the born again. Ephesians 2:8 tells us that we are saved by grace through faith. John 3:15 says that eternal life is to all who believe (same word in Greek). Hebrews 11:1 tells us that faith is the evidence of things not seen. This is the age of salvation by faith. The millenium will not require faith, as the LORD will be seen by all. Isaiah 65:20, speaking of the millenium, when people’s lifespans will again be lengthened, says that the “sinner, a hundred years old, will be accursed.” This seems to say that those sinning in the millenial kingdom will have up to a hundred years old to repent, then after that they are accursed. This could be the time after which it is impossible to renew them to repentance. Again, if there were a scripture which actually contradicted the many plain statements that rebirth is eternal, it would be the "smoking gun", a contradiction in the Bible. But there are not. Love in Christ, Mark |
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3 | What if willfully return to a sinning li | Eph 1:11 | EdB | 141395 | ||
Mark Read Spurgeon's sermon on these verses and then we will discuss them. His sermon is at www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0075.htm. While I don't agree with Spurpeon's conclusions He does an excellent job with his exegesis of the passage. I think if you read what he says you will see your what I mean. EdB |
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4 | What if willfully return to a sinning li | Eph 1:11 | mark d seyler | 141409 | ||
Hi EdB, Do I understand Spurgeon correctly, that he is saying that this warning is for something which in fact will never happen? Or am I missing something here? Love in Christ, Mark |
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5 | What if willfully return to a sinning li | Eph 1:11 | Morant61 | 141419 | ||
Greetings Mark! That is exactly what Spurgeon is saying! :-) Personally, I believe that there is a much easier way of explaining this passage. Here is a portion of a previous post I made on this passage. ************************************* Thanks for your patience! I was hesitant to go beyond what I wrote because of the difficulty of the verse. So, I have been doing some more research. Here is what I have concluded! The problem with Heb. 6:6 is that all of the verbs in this verse occur only one time in the New Testament. This makes it very difficult to be dogmatic about what they mean, since we have no context to compare them with. With that in mind, I believe the following: 1) That the author is writting to Christians, not pagans or hearers only! 2) That this passage is describing a continuing attitude or action! 3) That the person who persists in this attitude is lost! 4) That any sin or attitude can be repented of! Let's look at the progress of the passage. Beginning in verse 4, the passage says that it is impossible to renew to repentance those who: * have been enlighted (aorist participle). * have partaken of the heavenly gift (aorist participle). * have shared in the Holy Spirit (aorist participle). * have tasted the word of God (aorist participle). * have fallen away (aorist participle). The key, I think, is found in the last two verbs. I believe that they give the reason why these people cannot be brought to repentance again. These two verbs say that: * they are cruciying afresh (present participle). * they are exposing Him to public disgrace (present participle). All of the other verbs are aorist participles. They describe past actions. These last two are present participles describing present actions and attitudes. I think that the people described here are similar to those in Heb. 10:26 and 10:29. They are believers who despise the blood of Christ and wilfully sin against Him. The context of Heb. 6:7-8 would seem to support this. But, here is the key point. The impossiblity of renewing them to repentance seems to be tied to their current and ongoing attitude. I don't see anything is the passage that indicates that such a person can never be saved again or can never repent. It is impossible now, because they are crucifying, they are publicly shaming Christ, and they are sinning wilfully. If that attitude changes, I don't see any grammatical reason why they could not repent. One of the basic rules of interpretation is to let clear Scripture interpret less clear Scripture. Heb. 6:6 is not real clear. But, 1 John 1:9 is clear. No where else in Scripture are we told that it is impossible for someone to repent. Therefore, I would say that Heb. 6:6 desribes the lost condition of those who are actively and currently rejecting Christ wilfully. As long as they remain in this state of rejection, it is impossible for the to repent, since salvation is found only in the Christ they are rejecting. If they have a change of attitude toward Christ, I believe that this passage would no longer apply to them. ************************************** Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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6 | What if willfully return to a sinning li | Eph 1:11 | mark d seyler | 141420 | ||
Hi Tim, Thank you for your confirmation, and your thoughts on this difficult (indeed) passage. I know that we agree that we cannot lose salvation by our works. You have stated that you believe the Bible teaches that we can, as a born again believer, then reject Christ, and in that way lose salvation. Is that correct? Or have I misunderstood? Love in Christ, Mark |
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7 | What if willfully return to a sinning li | Eph 1:11 | Morant61 | 141422 | ||
Greetings Mark! I wouldn't use the word 'lose'! :-) We can lose a wallet without realizing it. I do believe, per for example Heb. 6, that a believer could willfully reject Christ, but I have only ever known one person that I believe has done so. I can't imagine willfully rejecting Christ. He simply means to much to me. I know that I have always taught that while we can't 'lose' salvation because of acts of sin, acts of sin can harden our hearts to the point that we could reject Christ. So, sin does matter for Christians. We certainly don't have a license to sin. Paul affirmed this point! :-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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8 | What if willfully return to a sinning li | Eph 1:11 | mark d seyler | 141428 | ||
Hi Tim, Granted that we are not so much speaking of losing a wallet; more like forcing it thru the shredder! :-) I agree we need to let the clear scriptures speak to the less clear. My difficulty with imagining that a truly born again believer would actually reject Christ Jesus and walk away comes from verses such as these: 1Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (This says to me that I am kept by God's power, not by my perserverance - can sin in my life prove stronger than the power of God, stronger than His chastening?) I Peter 1 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever (this says to me that the Word of God, that incorruptible seed, will stay in me forever - if I "send it away", it did not stay forever.) I John 5:13 that ye may know that ye have eternal life, (again, if I "cease to have" eternal life, it was not actually eternal. If there is the chance that I might reject Jesus and cease to live, how can I know now that I have eternal life?) Please let nothing I say be construed to mean that I believe sin is to be in any wise tolerated, excused, allowed. . . If a person is not involved in the daily struggle to not sin, I would question their "re-birth". I think that, since God is just, if one of us were to actually decide to reject Him He would allow it, not forcing us, but I think that the new nature He has given us will not do that. May it be so! Love in Christ, Mark |
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9 | What if willfully return to a sinning li | Eph 1:11 | Morant61 | 141456 | ||
Greetings Mark! It is definitely a complex issue! :-) As I said earlier, I have only ever known of one person that I believe would fit the Heb. 6 passage. He has completely turned his back on Christ and has embraced new age teachings now. Allow me to address your references quickly. 1) 1 Peter 1:5 certainly does teach that we are 'kept' by God's power. But, does this mean that we cannot reject God? I would say no in light of the many passage that do speak of falling away. Heb. 6 is just one example of such a passage. I found it interesting that even Spurgeon accepted that Heb. 6 describes a Christian. :-) 2) In your second verse, I would disagree that the Word abides IN US forever. The Word of God is the means, but nothing in the verse says anything about it abiding in US forever. It simply affirms that the Word of God abides forever. 3) 1 John 5:13: This is one of my favorite arguements! :-) It sounds good, but there is a logical fallacy involved in the arguement. The arguement is based on 'eternal' being unending. However, 'eternal' also means without beginning as well. So, if someone enters into 'eternal life', is that life really eternal? ;-) So, I would say that if 'eternal life' can begin, it can certainly end! As far as your last point is concerned, I would say that we definitely have a new nature, but Paul clearly teaches in Rom. 8 and Gal. 5 that we can choose to obey or disobey that new nature. So, I'm not sure that I would say that the new nature 'will not' do that! I appreciate your posts my friend! I also appreciate your gentle spirit! We may not see this issue exactly the same way, but I believe that we are certainly closer than not! :-) We would both agree that a 'Christian' who habitually sins is probably not a Christian to begin with! We would both agree that grace is not an excuse for Christians to sin. It is funny! I am supposed to sing this Sunday during our morning service, and I am planning on singing Ray Boltz' "Feel the Nails". This song asks the question if Christ still feels the nails everytime I sin. How could any Christian want to continue the very same things that led to the death of our Savior? :-( May we all live lifes that will be holy and pleasing to our Lord! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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10 | What if willfully return to a sinning li | Eph 1:11 | mark d seyler | 141475 | ||
Hi Tim, I have appreciated discussing this with you as well! I did a survey of some of my commentaries last night, and found each one I looked at (Scofield, Henry, Jaimeson Fauset Brown, Chuck Smith, David Guzik) all considered the Hebrews 6 passage to be speaking of non-christians. Of course each one had a different spin on it, and I am not sure how much I really gained by reading these. David Guzik brought up that of all the words used to describe these people, faith was not one. Like I said to Ed, ultimately, in my life, it really comes to semantics in how this issue relates to me. Either a person is "born-again" and "dies again", or the fallen away was not reborn to begin with. Either way, they are in serious trouble. To the one who is walking and abiding in Christ, let us continue do justly, love mercy, and walk humbly with our God! Love in Christ, Mark |
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11 | What if willfully return to a sinning li | Eph 1:11 | Morant61 | 141495 | ||
Greetings Mark! Agreed! :-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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