Results 1 - 8 of 8
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | gift of healing same as prayer of faith | 1 Cor 12:9 | Makarios | 159540 | ||
Greetings Tim! I appreciate your response! But I must disagree with your assessment of 2 Cor. 12:12. Only the few people that I have already specified in my former post have had the ability to perform the miracles of healing that we see in Scripture, and nowhere do we see someone who is not prominent in the church, or anyone past the 1st Century A.D. able to perform these miraculous healings. As for Acts 4:30, the believers were actually praying for Peter and John, who were just released from chief priests, to the Lord to "look upon their threats and grant to your servants to continue to speak your word with all boldness, while you stretch out your hand to heal, and signs and wonders are performed through the name of your holy servant Jesus." You are taking Acts 4:30 completely out of context if you believe that the believers in this verse are praying for the gift of healing for themselves to carry out. :-) Mark 16:17 does not add to this argument, because we are already seeing this come to pass with the apostles in the 1st Century A.D. Hebrews 2:4 says that "God also bore witness by signs and wonders and various miracles and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will." Have you ever wondered why the gift of healing was not given to anyone except for the apostles, the seventy, Philip and Steven? :-) Now, Hebrews 2:3-4 may not say that there were "signs of a true apostle", but 2 Corinthians 12:12 surely does! :-) I am still waiting on a response as far as what you think that those signs were, if they were not for healing. It is certainly not a stretch to believe that the gift of healing was a temporary sign, which I believe that I have sufficiently supported through the use of Scripture. It seems that the arguments that you present are much more of a stretch than the ones that I have made, based upon the verses that you have presented, and the complete lack of evidence of this gift existing in the church today. True, I do concede that there is no verse within Scripture that tells us that the gift of healing is 'temporary', but at the same time, there is absolutely NO Scripture evidence whatsoever of anyone doing any miracle of healing outside of the select group of Christ, the apostles, and a few others that were close to that group. As for the gift of healing occurring today, I believe that it does and may happen today. But if it does, it is not enacted as a specific gift that is bestowed on any select individual, but the Holy Spirit is in fact the One who instigates the healing, and not any specific individual. So, in that sense, the gift of healing is exhibited, but only through prayer and through the Holy Spirit. And I challenge you to prove otherwise, my friend! :-) You state: "My point is simply this: I cannot hold to a doctrinal position that is never once stated in Scripture. :-)" Ok, in that case, I presuppose that you are having problems with believing in the Trinity, since that is not once stated in Scripture? I presuppose that you are having problems believing in Arminianism, since that is not once stated in Scripture? I thoroughly believe that my viewpoint is supported firmly through Scripture, and I do not agree with the premise that you have presented, stating that the gift of healing is distributed today. Now, I most certainly can be wrong, and if presented with solid, factual evidence that the church today continues to be bestowed with this gift, then I will be the first to admit that I am wrong. So far, I have not been proven wrong. But I remain unconvinced that I am not wrong in this instance, or with the how and why concerning this gift that is revealed through Scripture. Your brother in Christ, Makarios |
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2 | gift of healing same as prayer of faith | 1 Cor 12:9 | Morant61 | 159562 | ||
Greetings Makarios! We may just have to disagree on this point my friend! :-) Allow me to address a few of your points. 1) If these gifts were only temporary sign gifts for the apostles, then why are there exceptions in Scripture? ;-) If they are ONLY marks of an apostle, then no one but an apostle should be doing them. 2) As for the doctrine of the trinity, you know as well as I that while the word 'trinity' does not occur in Scripture, the principles certainly do (and they are explictily spelled out). This is not the case with cessestionism (sp?). 3) You wrote: "True, I do concede that there is no verse within Scripture that tells us that the gift of healing is 'temporary', but at the same time, there is absolutely NO Scripture evidence whatsoever of anyone doing any miracle of healing outside of the select group of Christ, the apostles, and a few others that were close to that group. " Well, since the NT only deals with Christ, the apostles, and a few select individuals who were close to them, should this really surprise us? ;-) 4) Acts 4:30: Is it really taking it out of context to say that this prayer applied to more than just the apostles? Read Acts 4:31: "After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly." 5) Mark 16:17: Does this verse say that these will be a sign for apostles, or for those who believe? Well, that is enough for now! :-) I have to get to my other work. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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3 | gift of healing same as prayer of faith | 1 Cor 12:9 | Makarios | 159564 | ||
Greetings Tim! You stated that we may just have to agree to disagree on this topic.. Why is that? :-) Let me give some answers to your points from my position: 1) This temporary gift of healings was used by Christ (Matt. 8:16,17), the apostles (Matt. 10:1), the seventy (Luke 10:1), and a few associates of the apostles, such as Philip (Acts 8:5-7). According to 2 Cor. 12:12, this ability was identified as a gift belonging to the apostles, and Scripture tells us that a few subordinates had this gift as well (ex. Philip). However, Scripture is completely SILENT in regards to the common people that Peter, Paul, John and Philip presented the gospel to as also having this gift of healings. Therefore, even though Scripture did focus on the doings and dealings of Christ and the apostles foremost, you would expect that there would be some evidence or mention that this gift of healings was performed by someone else outside of the select "group" of Christ, the apostles, and their subordinates mentioned in Scripture, but there isn't any to be found! Even the gift of speaking in tongues has evidence that suggests that people were actually doing and using this gift (1 Cor. 14), but Scripture is strangely silent in regards to the gift of healings outside of the "select group" that I have restated above. 2) As for cessesionism, I am not promoting the complete cessation of spiritual gifts spoken of in 1 Corinthians 12, only this gift of healings, which was miraculous at the time, but today even more miraculous, since there is no evidence of this gift happening on a broad perspective in the church today. Perhaps if your stance were true, then we would not do a double take when a Christian takes the hand of someone who has been lame since birth and healed them so that they can now walk.. But as we presently live in this day and age, this type of healing is completely devoid in the church. 3) Your question #3 was really a restatement of your question #1, so please refer to that answer for the answer here. 4) Concerning Acts 4:30, yes! Yes, it is really taking it out of context to say that this prayer applied to more than just the apostles. And I say this with the full knowledge of Acts 4:31 in mind. Acts chapter 4 begins with Peter and John being arrested. Verses 5-12 speak of them addressing the Sanhedrin. Verses 13-22 speaks of the Sanhedrin and how they are unable to deal with the testimony of Peter and John. Acts 4:23-31 speaks of what happened when Peter and John were released, and the brethren begin praying for them in verse 24, but they end their prayer in verse 31. The entire chapter has to do with the arrest and release of Peter and John. 5) Mark 16:17 speaks that these signs and wonders will follow those who believe. However, I present this argument to you in light of Mark 16:17: Who do you know in the church today who can speak a word and a person is healed by that word? (Acts 9:32-35) Who lays their hands on people and can heal people almost immediately? Therefore, since there is a great lack of this gift of healings actually being performed and carried out in the church today, would it not be prudent to ask the Holy Spirit why He does not distribute this gift to the present church if Mark 16:17 says that we should have this gift? So, as you can see, I have made some valid points, and I am actually still waiting for you to address a few of mine. But I am in no rush. :-) I pray that you have a refreshing day and that the Lord's blessing is with you, my friend. Makarios |
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4 | gift of healing same as prayer of faith | 1 Cor 12:9 | Morant61 | 159571 | ||
Greetings Makarios! I say that we may just have to disagree because we see this issue totally differently. :-) You are comfortable with your position, as I am with mine. :-) A few quick comments! 1) You use the word 'temporary again though it is not found in Scripture. This is the crux of the debate. :-) Your whole arguement is again one from silence. You feel that someone other than those who are mentioned should be mentioned. Because they aren't, you argue that the gift only applied to the Apostles. This is an arguement from silence. 2) Because of the way you define the gift, no evidence of the gift today would suffice. If someone is healed, you would say that it is an answer to prayer, not a 'gift of healing'. :-) Where does Scripture define or describe how a 'gift of healing' must occur? 4) The chapter certainly details the arrest and release of Peter and John, but they are not the only ones who prayed. So, I would definitely see this passage differently than you do. V. 29 asks that 'your servants (might) speak your word with great boldness. One could argue that this only meant the apostles, but v. 31 applies the answer to this prayer to 'all of them'. 5) Could it be that these events are not more common because many in the church do not believe in the gifts anymore? Many who do have turned them into nothing more than natural talents and abilities, not supernatural workings of the Holy Spirit. By the way, why does our experience have to support the Word? God's promises are true whether we receive them or not. Finally, would you be kind enough to refresh my memory on the points you are waiting for me to address. ;-) Old age is setting in! ;-) p.s. - I appreciate the prayer my friend. I have been working 6 days at my secular job, in addition to the hours spent in ministry. But, God is really blessing our congregation. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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5 | gift of healing same as prayer of faith | 1 Cor 12:9 | Makarios | 159701 | ||
Greetings Tim, You state: "1) You use the word 'temporary again though it is not found in Scripture. This is the crux of the debate. :-)" No, that is not the crux of the debate. The crux of the debate is that the gift of healings is not exhibited today as it was at the time of Christ and the apostles. And even though I have already conceded that the word "temporary" is not used in conjunction with the gift of healing in any Bible verse, there are several verses that point to the Scriptural veritability of my position even though it is not spelled out word for word in Scripture (Luke 9:1-2, Mark 16:20, Matthew 10:1, 2 Cor. 12:12, etc, etc, etc..). And my argument is NOT from silence. You state: "2) Because of the way you define the gift, no evidence of the gift today would suffice. If someone is healed, you would say that it is an answer to prayer, not a 'gift of healing'. :-) Where does Scripture define or describe how a 'gift of healing' must occur?" All we have to do is look at the examples given to us in Scripture of how Christ and the apostles carried out the gift of healings to know that what happened then does not happen today. 4) As for your 4th point referencing Acts chapter 4, verse 31 actually says, "And when they had prayed, the place in which they were gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and continued to speak the word of God with boldness." Verse 31 does not say anything about anyone healing anyone, and it most certainly can't be used to make the entire chapter reflect on the entire church instead of simply to Peter and John, which is exactly what it states.. Now, I can accuse you of 'arguing from silence' in this instance. You state: "5) Could it be that these events are not more common because many in the church do not believe in the gifts anymore? Many who do have turned them into nothing more than natural talents and abilities, not supernatural workings of the Holy Spirit." Now, who is 'fishing' for something that is not stated in Scripture? You state: "By the way, why does our experience have to support the Word? God's promises are true whether we receive them or not." You are the one who is seeking to justify your position based upon experience. If you use the Bible as your basis, you know that the healings expressed therein do not happen today. As for addressing all of my points, you will need to go back and read my posts in this thread because there are too many points for me to quote in one post. One answer that I would like to know is your interpretation of 2 Cor. 12:12. Blessings to you, Makarios |
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6 | gift of healing same as prayer of faith | 1 Cor 12:9 | Morant61 | 159751 | ||
Greetings Makarios! 1) You wrote: "No, that is not the crux of the debate." It is for me! ;-) No one disputes that the verses you list mention that historical fact that signs and wonders were a part of the ministry of the apostles and served in some manner to confirm their message (even though not everyone believed even with the miracles). What I dispute is that anything is these verses state or demand that the gifts must be temporary. Not only is that position not spelled out word for word, it isn't spelled out at all in my reading of Scripture. ;-) 2) You contend that there is some major difference between then and now in terms of how healings were accomplished. I disagree. Perhaps we are simply understanding the nature of spiritual gifts differently. 4) Where in Acts 4 does it say that the prayer is only for Peter and John? 5) These are the kinds of points not worthy of this discussion my friend. You were discussing your impressions of the present state of healings and I was countering with my impressions. I never claimed Scripture support for this impression. I simply posed a possibility. I did not state, "Scripture says that healing are not seen today because we do not believe." ;-) Further, I most emphatically did not base my position on the gifts of healing upon experience. I base my position upon Scripture. You claimed that the gifts are not occuring today, I responded that I have seen them personally. My claim about the gifts of healing is based upon 1 Cor. 12-14, where ordinary Christians are told that God distributes these gifts as He wills, and where ordinary Christians are commanded to seek the best gifts. 1 Cor. 12:28 does not state that only apostles can have a gift of healing. Rather, it distinguishes between apostles and those with gifts of healing. Finally, my interpretation of 2 Cor. 12:12 is much the same as yours expect I do not add the thought that only apostles could do signs and wonders. Well, I have to get to bed my friend! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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7 | gift of healing same as prayer of faith | 1 Cor 12:9 | Makarios | 159810 | ||
Greetings Tim, I appreciate your responses to this topic, but I believe that I will just be repeating myself over and over again.. I hoped that we could have come to some common ground on this topic, but I now believe (as you did before) that this discussion is really going nowhere.. I remain comfortable with my position, but I believe that there is little fruit that can be shared by continuing. I apologize if I was a bit sharp in some of my responses. Many times when I write posts, the posts actually write themselves without any help from me! :-) When that happens, I act a lot on instinct, which is not always completely sinless.. :-) But I do appreciate your contributions, as always, and I'm sure that your ongoing posts will continue to be rich with the truth of the gospel message that we hope to advance in every way. Blessings to you dear Brother, Makarios |
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8 | gift of healing same as prayer of faith | 1 Cor 12:9 | Morant61 | 159814 | ||
Greetings Makarios! No problem my friend! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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