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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | gift of healing same as prayer of faith | 1 Cor 12:9 | mark d seyler | 159403 | ||
Hi DAW, Paul wrote the letter called "Romans" "To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints", not just to the Apostles. That being so, when Paul says in chapter 12: "4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: 5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. 6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;" is this to the church, or just to the apostles? In the same way, the first letter to the Corinthians was written "Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours" "to the saints in Corinth, and in every place" We are among them. This letter is to you and me. So when speaking of the spiritual gifts, when Paul writes "But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal." (1 Cor 12:7), does that mean that the gifts are given to just the apostles, and maybe a few more, or to all the saints? Now, regarding whether or not this giving of spiritual gifts ended. Are spiritual gifts for today? Some say they are not, because of I Cor 13:10 “But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part (these gifts) shall be done away.” They say “that which is perfect” is the finished Bible. The closed canon of Scripture. The logic is that since we now have the complete word of God, we are no longer given spiritual gifts, which were a weaker substitute. But does the Bible identify itself as the "that which is perfect" that is to come? It does not. Paul identifies something else instead. What are spiritual gifts for? 1 Cor 14:12 “Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church,” and Eph. 4:12-13 “For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:” This goes toward answering what “that which is perfect” is. The perfect (complete) man. The gifts are for us until we no longer need them. I become sick, and I need healing. I struggle with difficult scripture, and I need teaching. Before I knew Christ, I needed evangelizing. I become discouraged, and need exhortation. And so on. So I look towards my brothers and sisters to minister to me according to the gifts God has given them. Until the church is perfected, complete, conformed to the image of Christ. Jesus taught that believers would have abilities beyond what is natural. Acts demonstrates believers, not just apostles, having these abilities. The eclessiastical letters teach us about these abilities, where they come from, what they are, how to use them, and what they are for. There is a very solid body of evidence in the Bible that the Spirit gives gifts to believers today. Let us use our gifts ministering to each other as our Lord commanded us. Love in Christ, Mark |
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2 | gift of healing same as prayer of faith | 1 Cor 12:9 | Morant61 | 159455 | ||
Greetings Mark! Excellent comments my friend! I just don't see any Scriptural basis for arguing that the gifts are no longer for today. Further, there is no specific Scripture that states that miracles were temporary, only to reach the lost. If this were the case, why wouldn't we still have gifts. There are still lost people who need to be reached. ;-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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3 | gift of healing same as prayer of faith | 1 Cor 12:9 | DocTrinsograce | 159459 | ||
Hi, Tim... In an effort to assist you in presenting a well balanced answer to the question of contemporary manifestations of sign gifts, let me point you to 1 Corinthians 13:8-10. Paul, discussing this very topic writes, "Love never fails. But if there are prophecies, they will be caused to cease; if tongues, they shall cease; if knowledge, it will be caused to cease. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect thing comes, then that which is in part will be caused to cease." (LITV) There are many, more studious and illustrious than I, who deem that the "perfect" had arrived and was marked by the closure of the canon. In Him, Doc |
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4 | gift of healing same as prayer of faith | 1 Cor 12:9 | Morant61 | 159461 | ||
Greetings Doc! This would be a very shaky premise to base an entire doctrinal position upon since Scripture DOES NOT identify what the 'perfect' is! :-) Secondly, 1 Cor. 13:8 only mentions prophesy, tongues, and knowledge. It says nothing about any other gift. ;-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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5 | gift of healing same as prayer of faith | 1 Cor 12:9 | DocTrinsograce | 159468 | ||
Brother Tim, you said you couldn't find any Scriptural basis for cessationism. So I was offering up this one for you. That would, in turn, enable you to make the more accurate statement, "From my perspective, the Scriptrual basis for cessationism is unconvincing." The best way to properly challenge a position with which you disagree is to be able to begin by stating it as well as a proponent of the position could do. (Paul gives us that example throughout Romans.) To leave people with the impression that your opponent has no Scriptural basis for their doctrine is at best, misleading and, at worst, dishonest. Our debate ought always reflect the character of Him with which we have to do. We all improve when we each improve! In Him, Doc |
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6 | gift of healing same as prayer of faith | 1 Cor 12:9 | Morant61 | 159470 | ||
Greetings Doc! I said that "I" find no Scriptural basis for that position, and I don't. I didn't say anything about anyone else! ;-) Scripture doesn't mention the canon, or the closing of the canon, or define the 'perfect' of v. 8. We can guess all day what it might be, but Scripture never says. Further, 'healings' are not even mentioned in this passage anyway. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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7 | gift of healing same as prayer of faith | 1 Cor 12:9 | DocTrinsograce | 159494 | ||
Okay, Brother Tim... well, now you know how to leave the proper implications. I'm glad we're coming along in this respect. It is certainly good that things on the forum don't have to be one sided! You don't deem the passage in Revelation 22 to be a reference to the closing of the canon? Protestant orthodoxy has held that position for quite a while. Indeed, I don't recall anyone questioning it in a scholarly sense until higher criticism came along. Nor do I recall it being questioned theologically until some of the SDA and LDS cults came along. Is your perspective unique or is my exposure to deliberation on this topic limited? All physical healing, anywhere, everywhere, under any circumstances is temporary and from a merciful, righteously beneficent God. Since people heal today, it would not have ceased. In Him, Doc |
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8 | gift of healing same as prayer of faith | 1 Cor 12:9 | Morant61 | 159499 | ||
Greetings Doc! Does Rev. 22 refer to the closing of the canon? Rev. 22:7 says, "Behold, I am coming soon! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy in this book." What is 'this book'? I would say that the 'book' is the same one mentioned in Rev. 1:11 - "which said: 'Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea.'" In other words, it is a reference to the 'book' that John is writing, not the Bible as a whole. I know that some have believed this to be a reference to the Bible, but it seems to me that this is a major example of eisgesis. In fact, at one point, there were those who thought that Revelation was the last book of the Bible written, because it was last in the Bible. But, there is evidence that it was not the last book written. So, if that makes me a SDA or and LDS, I'm sorry! ;-) p.s. - It is amazing the number of times that cults come into the discussion whenever you disagree with me on a point. :-( Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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9 | gift of healing same as prayer of faith | 1 Cor 12:9 | DocTrinsograce | 159517 | ||
Dear Brother Tim, Regarding the pertinent passage in Revelation: Is this your own interpretation, or does it represent a scholarly perspective? I'd like to read a bit more on it, but all of my sources take the opposite stance. I'd appreciate your sending me any references you might have. Thank you! In Him, Doc |
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10 | gift of healing same as prayer of faith | 1 Cor 12:9 | Morant61 | 159522 | ||
Greetings Doc! I have read it in various places as well, but it also makes good logical sense and good exegetical sense. 'This book' refers to a specific book. The Bible had not been canonized when Revelation was written, so why would someone assume that 'this book' refers to the Bible? Secondly, might it not be that this could represent both my interpretation and a scholarly perspective? :-) I would hope that the two are not mutually exclusive. ;-) But, here are some quick references. Barnes says of the phrase 'this book' in Rev. 22:18: "The reference here is to the book of Revelation only - for at that time the books that now constitute what we call the Bible were not collected into a single volume. This passage, therefore, should not be adduced as referring to the whole of the sacred Scriptures. Still, the principle is one that is thus applicable; for it is obvious that no one has a right to change any part of a revelation which God makes to man; to presume to add to it, or to take from it, or in any way to modify it." A. T. Robertson says of Rev. 22:18: "This warning is directed against perversions of this book, not about the New Testament or the Bible as a whole, though it may be true there also. " These few should suffice to demonstrate that I am not alone in my view. :-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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