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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Is the quote presumptuous? | John 6:44 | knucklehead | 123429 | ||
So you agree it is a little presumptuous to say: "If you prayed this prayer, you now have eternal life!"? |
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2 | Is the quote presumptuous? | John 6:44 | Morant61 | 123440 | ||
Greetings Knucklehead! No exactly! :-) If one prayed this prayer and meant it, then one would receive the promised gift of salvation. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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3 | Is the quote presumptuous? | John 6:44 | knucklehead | 123443 | ||
Tim: I've prepared the following commentary so as to show how important accurate knowledge is to praying what one means: 1Th 5:8 – “But as for us who belong to the day, let us keep our senses and have on the breastplate of faith and love and as a helmet the hope of salvation; because God assigned us, not to wrath, but to the acquiring of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.” Our salvation is a hope. Although a guarantee, is not possessed until God provides it. He has furnished the means, but only those that have endured to the end will be saved. (Matt 24:13) It is thus “acquired.” Rom 4:18 – “Although beyond hope, yet based on hope he had faith, that he might become the father of many nations in accord with what had been said: “So your seed will be.”” Abraham was declared righteous for salvation based on exercising faith that Paul says was based on hope he never attained during his life.(Heb 11:39) At Rom 8:24-25, Paul states: ”For we were saved in this hope; but hope that is seen is not hope, for when a man sees a thing, does he hope for it? But if we hope for what we do not see, we keep on waiting for it with endurance.” Paul speaks in the past tense as if already "saved" in order to emphasize God's reliability. Many pre-Christian prophets spoke of yet-to-be fulfilled events as if already having occurred. (I can provide examples if needed.) If our salvation was already here, we would lack the basis for faith that is essential for endurance. Rom 5:3-5 – “And not only that, but let us exult while in tribulations, since we know that tribulation produces endurance; endurance, in turn, an approved condition; the approved condition, in turn, hope, and the hope does not lead to disappointment; because the love of God has been poured out into our hearts through the holy spirit, which was given us.” The relationship between the true hope of salvation and genuine faith are paramount. Since faith follows the things heard, more than a casual knowledge of truth concerning God is vital. (Rom 10:17) A person cannot hope in what he does not truly know, so a prayer such as I quoted would not be genuine. I'm pretty sure you'll have a problem with this, but I just can't believe that such a prayer could be enough. |
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4 | Is the quote presumptuous? | John 6:44 | Morant61 | 123451 | ||
Greetings Knucklehead! You are a prophet my friend! :-) Scripture speaks of salvation is all three tenses. There is a future salvation - where are bodies are physically redeemed and all the effects of sin are done away with. There is a present tense in which we are being kept by God. However, there is also many passages which speak of salvation in both the past and the perfect tenses, which indicates that salvation is an accomplished reality. Here is a quote from a previous post of mine on a related topic. ************************************* Scripture makes it clear that we are not saved by our works (Eph. 2:8-9), not do we stay saved by our works. We are saved (past tense) by what Christ did on the cross. Consider the following: Titus 1:4 - " But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life." Every action of God in this verse in the tense of past completed action. We aren't being saved. We aren't hoping to be saved. We are saved, justified, and have already become heir of eternal life. In your interpretation, we might be saved one day and not the next. We might be justified one day and not the next. We might be heirs one day and not the next. Why? Because of our 'works', our status changes? Yet, Titus 3:5 specifically says that we were not saved because of righteous works. The Christian walk is not one of saved today, lost tomorrow, saved again. Peter, in the first chapter of his first epistle, agrees with Paul and lists the past, present, and future aspects of our salvation. In v. 3, we have been give new birth. It is a finished and completed action. In v. 5, we are being shield by God's power. This is an ongoing continuous progess. Finally, in v. 4, we have an inheritence which we will receive in heaven. How does this all tie into the unpardonable sin? Well, I agree with Mommapbs and George. There is only one unpardonable sin according to Mt. 12:30-32. This passage does not speak of every unconfessed sin. It speaks of a specific sin in contrast to every other sin. But, this is the position to which baptismal regeneration logically leads. If we are saved by grace plus other things that we must do, then logically we could be 'unsaved' by doing wrong things or not doing the right things. But, this is not the way Scripture describes salvation. It is not described as a process of being saved, being lost, being saved again, and hoping that I am saved when I die. It is described as a past completed action. That is good news. ***************************************** Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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5 | Is the quote presumptuous? | John 6:44 | knucklehead | 123475 | ||
Tim: Another related thought that's no doubt been beat to death on the forum is: Why does so much of the content of the letters written to the Christian congregation, including Jesus' words to the seven congregations in Revelation, involve attitude,conduct, etc. if the audience was already saved? It doesn't appear the point was to stop anyone from worrying, but rather to take it more seriously in order not to lose something. They needed to be reminded of God's great love and how He will legitimately expect us to respond to it.I think that the Scriptures indicate that the free gift of eternal life is available to all and cannot be earned. But we can show by our conduct a lack of appreciation that will cause us to forfeit the gift. Yahweh promised the Israelites a covenant to "time indefinite" but it was conditional. God did not break his side of the agreement, they did. Likewise with Christians, the hope is sure, but endurance is necessary. Thus Paul, John, James, Peter, and Jude found it important to keep addressing this issue. Works that reflect our sincere gratitude for Jesus' sacrifice, living no more for ourselves, indicate faith in the ransom, please God and work out salvation. That is why Satan continues to attack Christians, seeking to devour us. If saved already, he's mistaken and wasting his time. If I'm correct, this is not bad news. Think of it as the knowledge we now possess concerning cigarettes. People once died not knowing smoking was the cause. Now people can take appropriate action to avoid a similar outcome. So God will even resurrect the unrighteous that have died not knowing the truth. However, for all having considered this issue, He will expect us to "do the Father's will, not just say Lord, Lord." I'll end here rather say more and risk complicating things. Take care. |
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6 | Is the quote presumptuous? | John 6:44 | BradK | 123478 | ||
knucklehead, While I think you place more emphasis upon works in salvation, your point is understood. However, your point that "If saved already, he's mistaken and wasting his time" needs some clarification. You seem to be indicating that salvation is not a completed fact (or secure)? You're not saying that satan doesn't attack believers are you? For what is Paul's thrust in Eph. 6:10-18, if he's not addressing "To the saints...". "Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of His might. Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil." Speaking the Truth in Love, BradK |
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7 | Is the quote presumptuous? | John 6:44 | knucklehead | 123519 | ||
Brad: That was my point: If we are already saved, why would Satan bother with us? He should move on to someone not yet saved and try to prevent him from being such. All these letters to the saints admonish for a reason. So far, I am saved. I say that because I am also aware of the Bible’s counsel not to be overconfident of our standing. (1 Cor. 10:12) What is the reason for that? To persons who had been born again and had the hope of heavenly life (Heb. 3:1), the apostle Paul wrote: "Beware, brothers, for fear there should ever develop in any one of you a wicked heart lacking faith by drawing away from the living God; but keep on exhorting one another each day, as long as it may be called "Today," for fear any one of you should become hardened by the deceptive power of sin. For we actually become partakers of the Christ only if we make fast our hold on the confidence we had at the beginning firm to the end." (Heb. 3:12-14) It is by growing in knowledge and appreciation for the truth found in God’s Word that we fortify our faith. We must choose life. (Deut 30:19) People spend time at what they set a high priority on. These are works. Fleshly works show a lack of faith while spiritual works show true faith. We should do what our heart impels us to do - not thinking we are earning anything, but respondng gratefully as a man rescued from drowning does to the one that pulled him to safety. Even if I am misinterpreting, I feel safe in my position before the One who judges righteously. Thanks for all your input. |
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8 | Is the quote presumptuous? | John 6:44 | Zsuzsi | 123532 | ||
Hi Knucklehead, Satan does bother with everyone, saved or unsaved, he even bothered with Jesus so why would we be different? I cannot tell you why he does it apart from that he hates God and all things that are from Him, but speaking from personal experience I can tell that he does tempt Christians as well. Unfortunately we can't tell him where he "should" move on to... :-) In my opinion, salvation depends solely on whether one is reborn in the Spirit or not (John 3:1-21) - and in rebirth, I believe, our whole inner nature changes from 'sinful' to 'righteous'. By being reborn, we get the same Spirit whom Jesus Himself had (Galatians 4:6), and as He did, in our inner self we delight in doing His will (eg. Romans 7:22), and we call Him and know Him as 'our Father'. Even Jesus is not ashamed of calling us His brothers/sisters (Hebrews 2:12). If we live by this Spirit, we will be "in" but not "of" the world - this is what Jesus prayed for in John 17. Yet our mortal flesh is unredeemed while we are on earth (c.v. Romans 8:23), and it 'wars' against the Spirit of God in us (Romans 7:23). This is where Satan can attack; we must live by the Spirit in us and not obey the lusts of our flesh (Galatians 5:16). If we sin, that is because we have not obeyed the Spirit of God living in us. But that does not stop us from being reborn - it simply means we have temporarily acted against our own reborn selves, which is the same as acting against God, hence the guilt and consequences etc.. (Read Romans 7, esp v 9-25). We also know that God has defeated Satan and will strenghten and support us to do good (2Peter 2:9, Romans 8:11, etc), and we can count on the sympathy of Jesus when we are tempted because He knows what it feels like (Hebrews 4:15). Therefore Satan has no power over us - unless we allow him to have some. So we are actually told to rejoice in temptations (James 1:2) because we can be sure of victory. Unless we ourselves choose otherwise, of course. And if we do, we have still gained the knowledge of how dependant we actually are on God. If we sin, God is gracious and forgives (1John 1:9). So sinning does not take our birthright: we are still His children, and He still loves us. I usually say to people struggling with guilt that God foresaw all the sins we would commit before He chose to save us; so if He loved us yesterday, He loves us today too, no matter what we have done or will do tomorrow. This is why we can feel safe in our position before Christ. Maybe I am misinterpreting things, but it seems to me that the Scriptures are not saying we are to try to be good because we are afraid of what would happen if we weren't, or because we want any rewards, not even because of our appreciation of the sacrifice Jesus made for us; but because we are One with Him and simply can't do otherwise (1John 3:9). We are not our own any more: we are God's (1Cor 6:19). This is a wondrous thing: we can try to live 'good' lives even before we are reborn, that is what many people claim to do today - but that again is something like the young man who came to Jesus, saying he's been doing everything God commanded all his life but obviously he was still missing something: although he was prepared to obey God as a remote servant, he was not prepared to be reborn and completely owned by Him as a child (Mark 10:17-21). I believe it is the initmate oneness with Him, the sweet Father-child relationship between Him and us that makes us holy, not our own attempts to act righteously. There is only one sin that will not be forgiven: the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (eg. Mark 3:29), which I believe is "making Him out to be a liar" by claiming we walk in His light while we actually consciously walk in darkness (1John 1:10). That is a sin we can never repent of, since we deny repentance itself - neither will God forgive. Neither the generosity of the Father nor the sacrifice of Jesus "entitles" anyone to sin. Abusing the freedom which is our birthright is what Paul repeatedly refers to as "God forbid!". Once we are reborn, faith or works as a basis for our salvation loses meaning. Salvation is what God gives to us, not what we give to ourselves. All God wants is a willingness to completely surrender our lives to Him and enjoy the "fullness in Christ" already on earth and in the life to come. Read also Ephesians 3:14-21. This is what I believe... Hope it made sense... :-) God bless you, Zsuzsi |
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9 | Is the quote presumptuous? | John 6:44 | CDBJ | 123536 | ||
Hi Zsuzsi, I enjoyed reading your personal profile. It is amazing how the Lord is building His church and calling His chosen ones out from the multitudes by revealing the truth about Jesus. Matthew 16:15-17 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? [16] And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. [17] And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. Have a great day, CDBJ |
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