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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | John 15:2, "cut off" or "lift up"? | John 15:2 | New Creature | 70558 | ||
Joe Correct me if I misunderstand you here. It appears that you think that the intended audience to which John 15 is addressed is the 11 remaining apostles, and not to all believers in general. John 15:2 says "Every branch in me" is by "Every branch" only meant the 11 apostles? Now to address a couple of the questions which you presented "What do you think Jesus means by "bearing fruit," and do you think this means that we maintain our salvation by our works?" I think that believers need time to mature or ripen. A branch first begins to bud, then flower. The flower becomes fruit, and in time ripens. Fruit in the believers life is evidence that he/she is abiding. So you ask "do we maintain our salvation by our works?" Actually the works are not ours, but His as we yield ourselves to His molding influences. Without Him we cannot do anything. Or as John 15:4 states: "the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine" Titus 3:15 says; "they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works." So works are an essential part in the life of the believer. We do the works because we have been saved. Then you asked: " Do you think we keep his commandments because we abide in Him or that we abide in Him by means of keeping His commandments?" It should be each believers desire. Keeping or obeying the commandments is proof of our love for Christ. John 14:21 addresses this: "He that has my commandments, and keeps them, he it is that loveth me" In another passage Jesus asks" "why do you call me Lord, Lord, and do not the things I say" I think Jesus was directly speaking to those who professed to be followers of Christ, the lack of obedience on their part was proof that their profession was false. Next you ask: "How do we as human beings have control of whether any "fruit" that we bear will remain and flourish after it has left our control?" We give up control. We merely surrender, and cling to him. He produces the results, after we surrender our wills in obedience to His higher will. But being free moral agents we have a choice to either surrender control to Him, or refuse to yeild control to Him. Abiding is a two-way relationship. "I in Him, and He in me" John 15:4 In John 15:6-7 we find conditional statements: on the negative side: "If a man abide not in me" 15:6 on the postive side: "If ye abide in me" Right there is the two possible results which would seem to speak about our responsibility in this whole "abiding" process One last comment concerning John 15 In John 15:2 we see mentioned two types of branches. 1)those IN HIM that do not bear fruit 2) those in Him which do bear fruit. Both branches are said to be "in Him" When the branch is separated from the vine, the source of life is gone. NOTHING CAN WITHER AND DIE THAT HAS NOT PREVIOUSLY BEEN ALIVE. Let me rap this up with some other Scripture on this topic for your consideration every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. (Matt. 3:10 and Luke 3:9) Ye shall know them by their fruits. (Mt. 7:16) Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. (Mt. 7:19-20) Grace and Peace |
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2 | John 15:2, "cut off" or "lift up"? | John 15:2 | Reformer Joe | 70601 | ||
New Creature: Thanks for your reply! You wrote: "It appears that you think that the intended audience to which John 15 is addressed is the 11 remaining apostles, and not to all believers in general." Not exactly. In effect, we are "listening in," thanks to John, on something that Jesus was saying to the apostles (specifically) about "branches," both those that "abide in Him" and consequently "bear fruit" and those who do not abide in Him and are consequently cut off and used for kindling. While I think we need to examine more closely whom these branched refer to, he is not talking to the eleven specifically ABOUT the eleven. Sorry if I was unclear on that. Also, I agree with you regarding good, God-glorifying works being THE evidence of abiding in Jesus Christ. James 2 makes that clear. So, unless I am mistaken, you believe (like I do) that the works are the evidence, and not the cause, of an ongoing, abiding relationship with the Vine. I had asked, "Do you think we keep his commandments because we abide in Him or that we abide in Him by means of keeping His commandments?" In other words, which one causes the other? You answered that works should be the believer's desire. I am with you 100 percent on that, but that doesn't answer whether following the commandments causes us to abide or whether abiding causes us to obey His commandments. I also asked, 'How do we as human beings have control of whether any "fruit" that we bear will remain and flourish after it has left our control?' You responded that we should give up control. I guess I didn't state what I was asking clearly enough. When Jesus tells the eleven that they did not choose Him, but rather He chose them and appointed them to bear fruit, and that He appointed that their fruit will endure, I believe that He is referring specifically to the foundation of the New Testament church. He is APPOINTING that their fruit will endure after they are all dead, in other words. Since Jesus is speaking in the upper room to the eleven, how do they have any role in what will happen to their fruit once they are out of the picture? You also wrote: "But being free moral agents we have a choice to either surrender control to Him, or refuse to yeild control to Him." As Christians, that is true in a limited sense. God has a way of bringing us around to His way of thinking, however. Ask Jonah. :) 'In John 15:2 we see mentioned two types of branches. 1)those IN HIM that do not bear fruit 2) those in Him which do bear fruit. 'Both branches are said to be "in Him".' Correct. So now we come to the crucial question: what does Jesus mean by saying that both branches are "in Him." As you said, both types of branches are "in Him," but only one group is said to be "abiding in Him." We never are told that the branches "in Him" that were cut off were EVER "abiding in Him." He does not provide the image of them first producing good fruit and then ceasing to produce good fruit. In other words, here is the picture Jesus paints: (a)branches in Him and abiding in Him bear more fruit, get pruned to bear more fruit and (b) branches in Him but not abiding in Him get cut off and torched He twice in this passage apparently assures the eleven themselves that they are not in category (b). We see that in John 15:3 and in 15:16. Lastly, you quoted Matthew 7 a couple of times regarding what happens to the bad tree and also what happens to those who profess to be Christians but really are not Christians. Could the "branches" in category (b) above be referring to those professing Christians, who are baptized into the church but really are those whom Jesus NEVER knew (Matthew 7:23)? Looking forward to more discussion with you! --Joe! |
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