Results 1 - 7 of 7
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | John 15:2, "cut off" or "lift up"? | John 15:2 | Parable | 47483 | ||
My question is about how we come to understand the meaning of scripture. I use the example of John 15:2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. (NKJV) Some have used this verse to support the idea that salvation can be lost due to poor performance as a servant of Christ. This idea is hard to understand in light of Romans 8:1 "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus," and Ephesians 2:8-9 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- not by works, so that no one can boast." Also, the footnote on John 15:2 provided at www.biblegateway.com, suggests the word for "takes away" can be translated "lifts up". How are "takes away" and "lifts up" related? Given these questions, how are we to understand what Jesus is really saying? In his book "Secrets of the Vine", p. 33, Bruce Wilkenson offers this: "..a clearer translation of the Greek word 'airo', rendered in John 15 as 'take way, would be 'take up' or 'lift up'. We find accurate renderings of airo, for example, when the disciples 'took up' twelve baskets of food after the feeding of the five thousand (Matthew 14:20), when Simon was forced to 'bear' Christ's cross (Matthew 27:32), and when John the Baptist called Jesus the Lamb of God who 'takes away the sin of the world (John 1:29)." He continues, "In fact, in both the Bible and in Greek literature, 'airo' never means 'cut off'. Therefore, when some Bibles render the word as 'takes away' or 'cut off' in John 15, it is an unfortunate interpretation rather than a clear translation." Clearly, Wilkinson is critical of the many Bibles that translate 'airo' in a way he does not accept. He goes so far as to say "in the Bible and Greek literature, 'airo' NEVER means 'cut off'." This is a bold statement, considering that so many Bibles do translate the meaning as 'take away' or 'cut off'. (See John 15:2 at www.biblegateweay.com and compare versions.) Also, he appeals to Greek literature, a non-biblical source, to support his position. Is it acceptable to question the Bible in this way? Is it acceptable to compare the Bible with other sources? I say YES to both. First, the Bible itself instructs us to "Test everything. Hold on to the good." -- 1 Thess 5:21 Second, the Bible often uses comparisons with life to make its point. Parables are the clearest example of how comparisons with things we already understand from life help us to understand God's truths. Third, Jesus' intent simply is not faithfully conveyed by "takes away" or "cut off". In light of everything the Bible teaches about grace, mercy and love, especially the redeeming work of Christ on the Cross and the meaning of His resurrection, the fact one verse may be translated in a way that is contrary to that global meaning should cause us to question that translation rather than the global meaning. Furthermore, if there is a reasonable way to translate that verse such that it supports the global meaning of Scripture, rather than confound it, we are duty-bound to examine the evidence in support of that translation and its consequences for interpretation. Given this responsibility, how does "take up" or "lifts up" faithfully convey Jesus' meaning? Wilkison explains it this way, in a conversation with a vinedresser he met. He stresses that the vinedresser wants each and every branch to be fruitful. Vinedresser: "New branches have a natural tendency to trail down and grow along the ground. But they don't bear fruit down there. When branches grow along the ground, the leaves get coated in dust. When it rains, they get muddy and mildewed. The branch becomes sick and useless." Wilkinson: "What do you do? Cut it off and throw it away?" Vinedresser: "Oh, no! The branch is much to valuable for that. We go through the vineyard with a bucket of water looking for those branches. We lift them up and wash them off. Then we wrap them around the trellis or tie them up. Pretty soon they're thriving." This is the understanding Jesus wants us to have because it is what the disciples and everyone else of that day would have understood. No one then would have accepted the idea of discarding an entire branch and neither should we. Pruning, on the other hand, is a different matter, and it is likewise understood to be loving discipline, not disposal. My questions to the forum? 1. Is this a biblical understanding of John 15:2? 2. Is there anything wrong in the method used to support this interpretation? 3. If you disagree, what do you suggest is the proper method and interpretation? Parable |
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2 | John 15:2, "cut off" or "lift up"? | John 15:2 | New Creature | 70483 | ||
Parable Bruce Wilkenson like all other eternal security advocates have no choice but to attempt to revise the clear rendering of John 15:2 and 6. If "lifts up" was intended as what was meant by "airo" then I would think that at least one translation would have made the necessary adjustment. The fact is not a single translation renders "airo" in John 15 as "lifts up" Here is how various translations have worded the verses in John 15 which you mention. Different Bible Versions rendering of John 15:2 and 15:6 King James Version - taken away in verse 2 and cast forth in verse 6 Amplifed Version - cuts away in verse 2 and thrown out in verse 6 New American Standard Version - takes away in verse 2, and thrown away in verse 6 NIV Version - cuts off in verse 2, and thrown away in verse 6 Contemporary English Version - cuts away in verse 2 and thrown away in verse 6 New King James Version - takes away in verse 2 and cast out in verse 6 The Living Bible Translation - lops off verse 2 and thrown away in verse 6 Revised Standard Version - takes away in verse 2 and cast forth in verse 6 Todays English Version – breaks off in verse 2 and thrown out in verse 6 Gideons International Bible Version - cuts off in verse 2 and thrown away in verse 6 Weymouth Translation – takes away verse 2 and thrown away verse 6 Youngs Literal Translation – take it away verse 2 and cast forth verse 6 Darby – takes it away verse 2 and cast out verse 6 World English Bible – takes away verse 2 and thrown out verse 6 Websters Bible – taketh away verse 2 and cast forth verse 6 Basic English Bible – takes away verse 2 and becomes dead verse 6 J.B.Phillips New Testament Version - removes in verse 2 and broken off in verse 6 The Jerusalem Bible Version - cuts away in verse 2 and thrown away in verse 6 The Greek word for take in John 15:2 is "airo", which means "to lift, (see Gen. 40:19 N.I.V. - "Within three days Pharaoh will lift off your head") carry, take up or away. It is also use in John 1:29 of Christ as "the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world," and the same use of the word can be found in 1 Cor. 5:2 which reads: "And ye are puffed up, and have not rather morned, that he that has done this deed might be taken away from among you." (Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words) In John 15:2 the word away is used in connection with various verbs such as "take away" and is translated "away with" implying a forcible removal for the purpose of putting to death. (Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary Of Old And New Testament Words) In John 15:2 it should be noticed, that there is mentioned two different types of branches - 1) those that do not bear fruit 2) those that bear fruit. Of type number 1 it is said that these fruitless branches are taken away. Only of branch type 2 is there made mention of pruning to make it healthier. For more info on what becomes of the fruitless branches you need only look at verse 6. These fruitless branches that were taken away, or as verse 6 says "cast forth" have become lifeless and withered. There is no longer any sap or life in them. The only thing these dead withered branches are good for is as verse 6 says to be burned. That doesn't sound like being lifted up or supported to me. It is only when men twist the clear teachings of Scripture around that they could possibly say "airo" in this instance could possibly mean "lift up" Careful study of the text will plainly reveal that it says no such thing! Peace New Creature |
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3 | John 15:2, "cut off" or "lift up"? | John 15:2 | Reformer Joe | 70491 | ||
New Creature: You wrote: "Bruce Wilkenson like all other eternal security advocates have no choice but to attempt to revise the clear rendering of John 15:2 and 6." Please be more careful not to make sweeping generalizations like this. Not every person who believes in God's preservation of His saints agrees with Wilkinson's rendering of John 15. Thanks. --Joe! |
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4 | John 15:2, "cut off" or "lift up"? | John 15:2 | New Creature | 70507 | ||
Thanks Joe So let me ask you if I may. How do you personally interpret these verses in John 15? Grace and Peace New Creature |
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5 | John 15:2, "cut off" or "lift up"? | John 15:2 | Reformer Joe | 70514 | ||
"So let me ask you if I may. How do you personally interpret these verses in John 15?" That is a good question, New Creature. Perhaps we can take a close look at this and get a good idea of where the other person is coming from. First of all, I agree that the meaning of getting cut off and gathered and being thrown into the fire is too similar to other references to the judgment of hell to be easily dismissed as "something else." In fact, I think that condemnation is exactly what Jesus is talking about. Therefore, I think the question of whether this passage supports the loss of salvation or not is to determine whom Jesus was talking about. Like the good teacher that He is, Jesus used many different ways of talking about these branches to be burned. Here are some things that Jesus said about them, and I would like your take on what they mean. First, Jesus says in John 15:2 that they are the ones who do not bear fruit. What do you think Jesus means by "bearing fruit," and do you think this means that we maintain our salvation by our works? I have met some opponents of "eternal security" that do, and some that don't. Jesus continues by saying that bearing fruit comes from abiding in Him, and in verses 6-7 is hwere we see the throwing away, the withering, and the gathering and burning. What do you think Jesus means when He says that the fruitful branches "abide in Him"? In verse 10, Jesus equates abiding in His love with keeping His commandments, and provides the intra-Trinitarian relationship between the Father and the Son as an example. Do you think we keep his commandments because we abide in Him or that we abide in Him by means of keeping His commandments? In other words, which one causes the other? And Jesus makes one last statement that is interesting, especially in light of those to whom He is speaking: "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you." --John 15:16 These words are spoken to the eleven loyal disciples (Judas Iscariot had already departed in John 13:30). So these eleven had been appointed by Jesus Christ to do exactly what he had been telling them to do in the whole chapter. One might argue that Jesus was simply telling them what He wanted them to do, and that their decision to continue as His disciples was completely in their own hands. The only problem with that rendering is the phrase "and that your fruit would remain." How do we as human beings have control of whether any "fruit" that we bear will remain and flourish after it has left our control? But Jesus says that He has appointed these people for the purposes of BOTH occurring. Just one other point I would like to make, and then I am eager to hear what you have to say. Jesus commands His disciples to abide in Him and obey Him, and instructs them directly that apart from Him they can do nothing. He uses direct address (second person) to tell them all this. However, when he is speaking of the branches thrown into the fire, He only uses the third person ("he" and "the branches"). He never directly tells them in this passage, "If YOU do not abide in me, it is the fire for YOU." That by itself proves nothing, but it is interesting that this threat of judgment is never directed squarely at them. So what do you think? --Joe! |
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6 | John 15:2, "cut off" or "lift up"? | John 15:2 | New Creature | 70558 | ||
Joe Correct me if I misunderstand you here. It appears that you think that the intended audience to which John 15 is addressed is the 11 remaining apostles, and not to all believers in general. John 15:2 says "Every branch in me" is by "Every branch" only meant the 11 apostles? Now to address a couple of the questions which you presented "What do you think Jesus means by "bearing fruit," and do you think this means that we maintain our salvation by our works?" I think that believers need time to mature or ripen. A branch first begins to bud, then flower. The flower becomes fruit, and in time ripens. Fruit in the believers life is evidence that he/she is abiding. So you ask "do we maintain our salvation by our works?" Actually the works are not ours, but His as we yield ourselves to His molding influences. Without Him we cannot do anything. Or as John 15:4 states: "the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine" Titus 3:15 says; "they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works." So works are an essential part in the life of the believer. We do the works because we have been saved. Then you asked: " Do you think we keep his commandments because we abide in Him or that we abide in Him by means of keeping His commandments?" It should be each believers desire. Keeping or obeying the commandments is proof of our love for Christ. John 14:21 addresses this: "He that has my commandments, and keeps them, he it is that loveth me" In another passage Jesus asks" "why do you call me Lord, Lord, and do not the things I say" I think Jesus was directly speaking to those who professed to be followers of Christ, the lack of obedience on their part was proof that their profession was false. Next you ask: "How do we as human beings have control of whether any "fruit" that we bear will remain and flourish after it has left our control?" We give up control. We merely surrender, and cling to him. He produces the results, after we surrender our wills in obedience to His higher will. But being free moral agents we have a choice to either surrender control to Him, or refuse to yeild control to Him. Abiding is a two-way relationship. "I in Him, and He in me" John 15:4 In John 15:6-7 we find conditional statements: on the negative side: "If a man abide not in me" 15:6 on the postive side: "If ye abide in me" Right there is the two possible results which would seem to speak about our responsibility in this whole "abiding" process One last comment concerning John 15 In John 15:2 we see mentioned two types of branches. 1)those IN HIM that do not bear fruit 2) those in Him which do bear fruit. Both branches are said to be "in Him" When the branch is separated from the vine, the source of life is gone. NOTHING CAN WITHER AND DIE THAT HAS NOT PREVIOUSLY BEEN ALIVE. Let me rap this up with some other Scripture on this topic for your consideration every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. (Matt. 3:10 and Luke 3:9) Ye shall know them by their fruits. (Mt. 7:16) Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. (Mt. 7:19-20) Grace and Peace |
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7 | John 15:2, "cut off" or "lift up"? | John 15:2 | Reformer Joe | 70601 | ||
New Creature: Thanks for your reply! You wrote: "It appears that you think that the intended audience to which John 15 is addressed is the 11 remaining apostles, and not to all believers in general." Not exactly. In effect, we are "listening in," thanks to John, on something that Jesus was saying to the apostles (specifically) about "branches," both those that "abide in Him" and consequently "bear fruit" and those who do not abide in Him and are consequently cut off and used for kindling. While I think we need to examine more closely whom these branched refer to, he is not talking to the eleven specifically ABOUT the eleven. Sorry if I was unclear on that. Also, I agree with you regarding good, God-glorifying works being THE evidence of abiding in Jesus Christ. James 2 makes that clear. So, unless I am mistaken, you believe (like I do) that the works are the evidence, and not the cause, of an ongoing, abiding relationship with the Vine. I had asked, "Do you think we keep his commandments because we abide in Him or that we abide in Him by means of keeping His commandments?" In other words, which one causes the other? You answered that works should be the believer's desire. I am with you 100 percent on that, but that doesn't answer whether following the commandments causes us to abide or whether abiding causes us to obey His commandments. I also asked, 'How do we as human beings have control of whether any "fruit" that we bear will remain and flourish after it has left our control?' You responded that we should give up control. I guess I didn't state what I was asking clearly enough. When Jesus tells the eleven that they did not choose Him, but rather He chose them and appointed them to bear fruit, and that He appointed that their fruit will endure, I believe that He is referring specifically to the foundation of the New Testament church. He is APPOINTING that their fruit will endure after they are all dead, in other words. Since Jesus is speaking in the upper room to the eleven, how do they have any role in what will happen to their fruit once they are out of the picture? You also wrote: "But being free moral agents we have a choice to either surrender control to Him, or refuse to yeild control to Him." As Christians, that is true in a limited sense. God has a way of bringing us around to His way of thinking, however. Ask Jonah. :) 'In John 15:2 we see mentioned two types of branches. 1)those IN HIM that do not bear fruit 2) those in Him which do bear fruit. 'Both branches are said to be "in Him".' Correct. So now we come to the crucial question: what does Jesus mean by saying that both branches are "in Him." As you said, both types of branches are "in Him," but only one group is said to be "abiding in Him." We never are told that the branches "in Him" that were cut off were EVER "abiding in Him." He does not provide the image of them first producing good fruit and then ceasing to produce good fruit. In other words, here is the picture Jesus paints: (a)branches in Him and abiding in Him bear more fruit, get pruned to bear more fruit and (b) branches in Him but not abiding in Him get cut off and torched He twice in this passage apparently assures the eleven themselves that they are not in category (b). We see that in John 15:3 and in 15:16. Lastly, you quoted Matthew 7 a couple of times regarding what happens to the bad tree and also what happens to those who profess to be Christians but really are not Christians. Could the "branches" in category (b) above be referring to those professing Christians, who are baptized into the church but really are those whom Jesus NEVER knew (Matthew 7:23)? Looking forward to more discussion with you! --Joe! |
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