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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Such thing as a choice? | Eccl 6:10 | Morant61 | 153063 | ||
Greetings Doc! I'm sorry my friend, in my haste I forgot an important point. You wrote: "So the answer is that God truly intended to destroy Nineveh on the condition of their failure to repent." Where does the text of Jonah list this condition? Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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2 | Such thing as a choice? | Eccl 6:10 | jlhetrick | 153141 | ||
Dear Tim, Try to pay attention to what Doc is saying as he explains to you the character of God and presents answers to the questions by representing scripture in context. Doc isn't THE authority on scripture, however, he posts with researched and contextual representation of scripture, not pulling individual verses out to make a point. If you are willing, you can be taught. Don't forget how awesome God is. God's mind never changed regarding Nineveh, nor did His plan. God knew very well that the people would repent if they were warned. His plan, was not to destroy Nineveh, but rather to spare it at that time. Thus, the ongoing work with Jonah to get him to Nineveh to give the warning (which is really the fascinating part of the story to me). Thank of Sodom and Gomorrah. When Abraham "debated" with God asking him to spare the cities if 50 righteous were found. God said He would not do it if 50 were found. As you know, Abraham "bargained" all the way down to ten. God said, "I will not destroy it on account of the ten." Well, the opposite thing happened here vs. Nineveh. The cities were destroyed. Had God "changed his mind" when Abraham interceded? Of course not, God knew exactly how many righteous there were and had determined to destroy the cities. Abraham, I am sure, learned this truth. In the book of Jonah, God had determined to spare Nineveh. He designed a plan to involve man in that. He chose Jonah, Jonah resisted, God's plan prevailed. Regarding "adding to what is written". I believe that God expects us to add common sense, intellectual understanding, and spiritual discernment when reading and studing the scriptures. This approach allows the Holy Spirit to give us His interpretation of His word. Otherwise, we may find ourselves guilty of slinging verses up on the screan with intentions of supporting our position (which may be wrong) Jeff (always learning) |
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3 | Such thing as a choice? | Eccl 6:10 | Morant61 | 153150 | ||
Greetings Jeff! Thanks for the response my friend! But, I'll stick to what the text actually says when I am developing my theology. I have heard to many attempts over the years to explain away the text based upon common sense. You wrote: "God's mind never changed regarding Nineveh, nor did His plan." Yet, Jonah 3:10 says, "And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not." Now, who should I believe? ;-) God's word says that He did change His mind, while others say that He did not. You also wrote: "Otherwise, we may find ourselves guilty of slinging verses up on the screan with intentions of supporting our position (which may be wrong)" So, posting 10 verses where God said He changed His mind is somehow wrong? But, stating that God never really intended to destroy Ninevah (in spite of God's clear statement to the contrary) is somehow okay? I really don't understand modern hermanutics! ;-) The original point of my question was to simply explore the relationship between God's knowledge and our will. The point was made that God never changes His mind, yet I provided about 10 verses that said He did change His mind. If going with God's word on this point means I'm unteachable, I can live with it. ;-) I was simply curious as to how others approached this issue, but it don't appear that much discussion is possible on this issue. As I stated in another post, my approach to this is simple. Every time that God says 'He does not repent', the statement occurs in the context of lying. God does not lie. He is faithful to do what He has promised. Almost every occurance where God is said to have changed His mind is found in the context of withholding judgement based upon a change in relationship. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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4 | Such thing as a choice? | Eccl 6:10 | DocTrinsograce | 153154 | ||
Dear Tim, You wrote, "Now, who should I believe?" All things being equal, you'd probably be on a lot safer ground with orthodoxy rather than the Open Theism by people like Greg Boyd. I believe he calls it the "Open View" or something similar. You are in a tiny minority that has rejected orthodoxy, but at least you aren't a "Lone Ranger." :-) When you declined to offer any scholarly support for your interpretation, I did some research. Interesting! Outside of Boyd there are two other groups that affirm divine repentance. I did find something interesting that R. C. Sproul wrote on this topic. I don't know why I didn't think of it, since it is such a fundamental rule to the proper understanding of Biblical doctrine. You -- and Boyd -- are building a doctrine on narrative texts. Doctrine should only be built on didactic texts, lest we fall into error. Sproul wrote: "Even to talk like this is to border on blasphemy. That God could be corrected by Moses or any other creature is utterly unthinkable. Yet, that seems to be the implication of the narrative. This is a major reason why we must interpret the narrative passages of Scripture by the didactic or 'teaching' portions. If we try to find too much theology in narrative passages, we can easily go beyond the point of the narrative into serious errors. "The biblical narratives in which God appears to repent, or change His mind, are almost always narratives that deal with His threats of judgment and punishment. These threats are then followed by the repentance of the people or by the intercessory petitions of their leaders. God is not talked into 'changing His mind.' Out of His gracious heart He only does what He has promised to do all along - not punish sinners who repent and turn from their evil ways. He chooses not to do what He has every right to do. "The point of these narratives is to encourage us to pray. We are to make intercession. The promised threats of divine punishment are given with the condition attached that if we repent, we wi1l escape those punishments. Sometimes that condition is spelled out explicitly, while at other times it is merely implied. When we repent, then God removes the threat of punishment. The question is, Who is ultimately repenting here? God never repents in the sense that He turns away from sin or from error." An example of a didactic texts would be: God is not a man, that He should lie; neither the son of man, that He should repent: hath He said, and shall He not do it? or hath He spoken, and shall He not make it good? (Numbers 23:19) And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent. (1 Samuel 15:29) I the LORD have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not go back, neither will I spare, neither will I repent; according to thy ways, and according to thy doings, shall they judge thee, saith the Lord GOD. (Ezekiel 24:14) For I am the LORD, I change not. (Malachi 3:6a) Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. (James 1:17) Now who should I believe? I'll stick with a sound hermeneutic of Scripture that has the test of time having been built on sound doctrine. My apologies to Greg Boyd. :-) In Him, Doc "God's commitment to his promises hangs on his not repenting like a man. In other words, God's promises are not in jeopardy, because God can foresee all circumstances, he knows that nothing will occur that will cause him to take them back." --John Piper "Presenting itself as a legitimate variant within evangelicalism, 'open' theism in reality so redefines the God of the Bible and of theology that we wind up with a quite different God." --D. A. Carson "We're told in the New Testament that Jonah was a prophet of grace. Well, do you remember his message? "Yet 40 days and Nineveh will be destroyed." Hey, great sermon. Want to hear 'em like that Sunday after Sunday? But that's a message of grace! How do you know that? Jeremiah 18 tells you that contained in every warning of the prophets of scripture is the implicit promise of blessing for those who see their sin, who turn from their sin and cast themselves upon the mercy of the Lord. God is not telling you about a possible future which he’s going to flexibly adapt to you." --Ligon Duncan Greg Boyd's Web Site: http://www.gregboyd.org/ Orthodoxy Responses to Open Theism: http://www.carm.org/open.htm |
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5 | Such thing as a choice? | Eccl 6:10 | Morant61 | 153157 | ||
Greetings Doc! First of all, I am not an open theist. I have not quoted them, nor do I accept their positions. So, why do you keep bringing them up? I simply quoted 10 verses that say that God repented. If you don't like the verses, you will have to take that up with God. It is His book! ;-) Secondly, why is it necessary to quote someone about these passages. Aren't the Scriptures sufficient? The statements are quite clear. Contrary to the quotes you presented in your previous post, the text actually says that God repented. It is a bizarre day when accepting what multiple verses actually say is considered unorthodox! :-( Oh well! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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6 | Such thing as a choice? | Eccl 6:10 | terrib | 153158 | ||
Hi Tim, The original question used the phrase "God changes His mind". It might have been better to use the phrase "God changes His plan of action". Either way, I do agree with your outlook as to the Jonah situation. The insert below has some good points to it: Can our prayers cause God to change his mind? (Exodus 32:14) God does not change, but he will adjust his decrees to fit our response. The Bible contains many examples of this — the Hebrews on the outskirts of Canaan (Num. 14:11-23); Hezekiah's repentance on behalf of Israel (2 Chron. 29:3-10, 36); the sparing of Nineveh (Jonah 3:1-10). God's will is dynamic. As with any interpersonal relationship, God's relationship with humanity involves give and take. God accommodates his responses to ours; we adjust our responses to God's. So it can be said on this level, God sometimes changes his mind in response to our prayers. At the same time, God's will is determined. There are decrees and promises he has made that do not change. He kept his covenant with the Israelites (Deut. 7:7-8) and keeps his new covenant with us (John 6:37-40, 44). God wants us to follow his will obediently. He has predetermined ways he would like us to respond, but we have the choice to do them or not (Psalm 143:10; Heb. 10:35-39; 1 Thes. 5:18-18; 2 Peter 3:9). These three aspects of God's will work together. It is not possible for us to understand how, but God is ultimately in control. We might compare the relationship between God, his will and his people to a chess match between a novice player and a master. The novice can make any move he chooses and the master will respond accordingly. But the master will always be in control of the game. The analogy is limited and cannot be pressed further: God's people "win" when the Master's will is done. (Quest Study Bible, page 121. Copyright © Zondervan. Used by permission.) You are right, if everything is scripted then there is no freedom of choice! It is amazing how some like to put God in a box. I think the Pharasees were doing the same thing. The letter, the letter of the law kills. Too much theology can kill the Spirit, for in time it is no longer the Spirit that is teaching, but man. Some only believe what is written. Well, is there anything in the Scriptures that tells us what God is doing today, no, it is not in the Scriptures? Well, if it is not in the Scriptures then today never really happened, give me a break! Did people pray today? Did God answer prayer today? It's not in the Scriptures! Are we living in a vacuum? The Bible teaches us the basics of God, not the end of God! Is everything written in the Scriptures, NO, (John 21:25 KJV) "And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen." Where is mercy if everything is pre-planned? terrib |
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