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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Why won't Calvinists answer directly??? | Job 38:1 | RElderCascade | 1556 | ||
You're right, God elects all who believe. This is not conditioned on anything in us, it is only by grace. He is no respector of persons -- is a typical way of expressing this in the modern idioms. All the Elect are saved, none are lost. How can you read about the people in Noah’s day and Pharoah and the Philistines and Syria and on and on and not believe that God chooses some for salvation and not others? The Bible is a problematic book if not seen as God ruling in all of the world and the entire universe. What possible sense can be made of "hardening Pharoahs heart"? Is God just a meanie there in the Old Testament? Did He change later on? If a person is tempted to answer yest to both of these questions then that is the largest problem a person can have this side of judgement!!!!! The best analogy I can give you is that it might be best looked at like an author of a novel. Who made up the characters? Are they real in the book? Are they free to act in ways the author doesn't want? But they are not doing only what the author wants -- since they have consisitant personalities and they do only (their thing) what they want to do. Sure, the author uses them to tell a story and it can be about them but I would rather focus on the types of stories that are written for the purpose of the author other than to tell about a character. Many authors write for the purpose of articulating right from wrong (Dosteovsky comes to mind) rather than to merely take a slice out of time for the reader’s benefit. This is a little like the Bible’s focus from the beginning to the end. God has his own purposes. He is the main purpose of it all, not ourselves. His electing us does not make us puppets (in the negative sense--keep in mind there is a positive sense of this as well) any more than than the author’s characters are puppets. Only in poorly written works will this fail, when a story depicts someone acting out of character we resist and loose interest in the shoddy work, because the writer has “puppeted” his characters rather than keep in “character”. We are God’s creatures He is the only one who may decide what to do with us, and not the other way around. I would like to be (a puppet) upheld by his cables on my wrists and elbows and waist and knees and ankles, oh that I could stay there always in His freedom, never to to be dropped and only to know of His omnipotence! To never again worry about needing a lifeline to God! Wouldn’t you want to be a PUPPET also? All who are truly saved are there what else can be meant by Blessed be the God and the Father of our Lord Jesus who has blessed us with all blessings in heavenly places in Him, Holy and blameless before Him in love... |
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2 | Why won't Calvinists answer directly??? | Job 38:1 | jg8ball | 1577 | ||
You actually believe (as an analogy) that God wrote this big book and we are the characters in that book unable to express our own thoughts and wills but rather follow the script that God wrote? I'm sorry, but I just can't agree with that analogy. You mentioned the people in Noah's day. How does this hold up with your beliefs? Did God only "choose" Noah and his family as elect and realized that he didn't choose enough "good" people so he wiped out everyone else and started over or did He wipe out other Elect people? You also mentioned other people in the OT that God directly influenced. I do believe that God will "override" our will when necessary to see that his plan comes to pass. God predestined his plan of salvation for us. He wants us all to be saved and has made a provision for that through Jesus Christ. He wants us to love Him, not by His will, but by our own will. If you want to relate it to something, then a play would be a better example than a book. In this play, God created the opening characters and the setting for these characters to live. He also created a rough story line to follow but then gave these characters the abilty to "ad-lib" so that He could sit back and watch. Every once in a while, He'll throw in a plot twist or two or may guide a character a certain way to see that His ending is met. He's also there to help any character that asks for it. I admit it's not the best analogy, but It's not easy to incorporate God into something as simple as an author of a literary piece (other than the Bible). Finally, yes, I'd like to be a puppet (in the good sense), but I'd also like world peace, no hunger, no disease, etc... but that's just not the way I see that God works. I doubt that I'll ever be able to change your mind, and admit that you probably won't change my mind but I have been tring to see how you can interpret the way you do but just can't seem to agree with it. All I see is that you have taken a few verses out of the bible and interpreted the whole bible based on those verses, very similar to how the Jehovah Witnesses developed their understanding of the bible. When I interpret the bible, I try to use the whole bible and determine how it fits. If it seems contradictory, then I look at who the author was writing to, other things the writer had written, reference to OT that writer may have used and how that relates. When Paul is talking about the "Elect" and "God chose us" and "God foreknew us", he's talking to believers. These people can be called that because they have already chosen to follow Jesus. Paul was "building" these people up, encouraging them, reminding them what it means to be a follower of Christ. He was letting them know that God knew of his plan of salvation through Jesus from the beginning of time and that since they chose to accept Jesus into their hearts, they too are part of His plan. To imply that God's plan was to only select certain people to be saved and the others not to be saved is ridiculous. God may have hardened Pharoahs heart (or anyone elses) but did not prevent them from being repentent in the end. And finally, if you still believe that God chose only His "Elect" to be saved and that all the "Elect" will be saved because they cannot refuse the will of God, then how do you explain Jesus' words that it's harder for a rich man to go to heaven? |
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3 | Why won't Calvinists answer directly??? | Job 38:1 | RElderCascade | 1580 | ||
You assume that if God's creatures express their own will is a defeat God's purpose (script, as you put it) that is a false dichotomy. There no logical reason to attach personhood with being out of script of the Creator! All who are saved are really there as a puppet in the positive sense. Grace is never viewed as too large. Similarly, it not seen as large enough when the recipient of abounding Grace fails to see himself seated in heavenly places with Christ, NOW! Please don't confound the world's problems with those of a Christian's salvation! We are no longer there. |
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