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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Does this mean God is the author of sin? | 2 Sam 12:11 | RWC | 15352 | ||
Does this mean, then, that God is in fact the author of sin? This verse was cited to me in another discussion (Gal 2:17) about this same subject (see the message "Bob: What did you think of my view th... Reformer Joe Fri 08/24/01, 8:57pm"). I have done some preliminary reading from my rather limited library, and have come to no satisfactory answers. What this verse (and verse 12) say litterally, or so it would seem to me, is that God Himself would directly cause sin to take place. Granted, it was in judgement of previous sin. But if two wrongs don't make a right for humans, it certainly wouldn't for a holy God either! How can God do this and still be called holy? |
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2 | Does this mean God is the author of sin? | 2 Sam 12:11 | Reformer Joe | 15646 | ||
Bob: I wondered where you had been off to! I took some time before responding to read some of the answers from others on this forum, and I imagine that you were not terribly satisfied with most of those explanations, either. Your post does bring me to something I had wanted to fit in earlier: whether using the words "author," "cause," and "source" synonymously is correct here. Here is my understanding: Q: Where does sin originate? A: The sinful hearts of human beings. Before we have performed a single sinful act, we are sinners in our hearts. Jesus made this clear in the Sermon on the Mount regarding sinful acts: "'You have heard that it was said, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY"; but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.'" --Matthew 5:27-28 Even those who lack the opportunity or fear the earthly consequences of carrying out this act still have sinned; Christ even used the word "already" to indicate that as far as God was concerned, the act had been carried out in the sinner's heart. That answers the question of the authorship of sin. It is the sinner himself. ------- Q: What choices will the unregenerate make? A: Every thought and act of those who are not followers of the Lord Jesus Christ is marred by sin and selfish motives, and their every act is tainted by sin and displeasing to God. Paul says that they are slaves to their sin, and will produce nothing but sinful acts: "because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God." --Romans 8:7-8 Therefore, God continually brings into existence people who will, from birth to death, rebel against Him. He knew this from eternity past; this is no "cosmic accident." ------- Q: So how can God decree sin (along with all other things) without being the author of it? A: Here is what I come up with: ...by bringing sinful people into EXISTENCE (seen above; that includes all of us before we place our trust in Christ). ...by providing the ABILITY and OPPORTUNITY to sin. For example, an invalid could be a rapist in his heart, but God has not allowed him the capability to allow that already-existant sin to be carried out. Others, however (such as Absolom), have not been limited in their capacity to carry out this sin. Again, sin exists in the mind of sinners. They are the authors of it, notwithstanding any external reason(s) preventing them from carrying it out. This should be a very sobering thought for individuals who think that the fact that they do not act on their sinful impulses somehow makes them better than those who do. Many times the only thing keeping sinners from committing very heinous crimes is cowardice. ...by limiting the EXTENT of the expression of the sinful act. Absolom was brought into existence by God; he was born a sinner, so that he was bent toward evil. That evil heart constantly will reject what is of God and selfishly seek its own ends. God, having judged David for his sin with Bathsheba, made it so that Absolom would have the ability and opportunity to carry out the sinful desires of his heart. All of this, even though perpetrated by Absolom and arising from the sinfulness in his own heart, was decreed by God to serve His ends (i.e. judgment upon David). Absolom was still sinning even if he hadn't slept with his father's concubines. God, through external means, merely gave form to how Absolom's sinfulness found expression. A very crude analogy is how the water of a river will inevitably flow downstream, but it is the shape of the riverbanks which determines the path it takes. Re-direct the river, as God does with human beings and their opportunities and empowerment, and the water will still flow, only in a different direction. The good news is that God eventually limited the extent to which Absolom's rebellion would occur, just as He limits the extent to the damage which sin does to the world in our day. As bad as the world is today. imagine how horrible it would be if the expression of sinfulness was not checked! Therefore, God brings sinners into existence when and where He wants them to exist. He gives all individuals a certain amount of power and opportunity within the spheres of their existence, and all unregenerate people will continually use the power and oppurtunity they have to act out the sin they have already authored in their hearts. God in his wisdom controls and decrees all of the external variables so that the inevitable sinfulness originating within His creatures is carried out only in the manner in which He decrees, to serve His eternal purposes. --Joe! |
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3 | Does this mean God is the author of sin? | 2 Sam 12:11 | RWC | 16454 | ||
Hello Joe, You're right. I haven't read a response here that really seems to answer my question. And, I'm afraid, I must include yours in that statement. You come close to *asking* my question when you wrote: "Q: So how can God decree sin (along with all other things) without being the author of it?" Depending on just what you mean by your use of the word "decree," it maybe that you are asking here the same question as I am. (I refer you back to our discussion under Gal. 2:17 and again ask that we get some of these words we are using well defined so that we can clearly understand each other.) But, it seems to me, that your answers to this question miss the mark. The first part of your answer to this question was: "...by bringing sinful people into EXISTENCE..." I am not sure how this answers the question. Yes, God brings sinful people into the world (and/or allows sinful people to be brought into the world). As I understand it, He loves each of them, cares for each of them, and does not tempt any of them or cause any of them to sin. And yet, it would seem that this passage is saying something very different. It says that *God* caused this sin. What I want to know is if this is a figure of speech of some sort, or a misunderstanding based on cultural difference, or if it really means exactly what it says and therefore I misunderstand something about God! The second part of your answer to this question was: "...by providing the ABILITY and OPPORTUNITY to sin." Again, I am not sure how this answers the question. As I said in our discussions on Gal. 2:17, real choice must include both the real ability to choose and the real opportunity to choose. It seems to me that, if this is correct, then we can only be held responsible (guilty) to the degree that we had real choice. My point in that discussion (Gal. 2:17) was to ask, "how can God hold us accountable for things in which we have no real choice?" In other words, if God has predestined every detail of history, including every sin, what *real* choice does anyone have? It was at that point, if my memory serves me correctly, that you referred me to this passage that we are now discussing seemingly as a proof (or evidence) that God really does predetermine (decree, predestine) even the sins that we commit. But my question (from Gal. 2:17) still stands: how can God do that and not be the author of sin? That seems to be a blatent contradiction. In the passage we are discussing here, how can we say that God is not the cause (author) of this sin? The third part of your answer to this question was: "...by limiting the EXTENT of the expression of the sinful act." Again, as I think I said in our discussion attached to Gal. 2:17, I have no problem with the idea of limited freedom. But there is a vast difference between limited freedom and absolute predestination wherein there is no freedom - and therefore there can be no responsibility. But in particular reference to the passage that we discussing at the moment, it gives no indication of God simply limiting the available choices. It quite specifically says that God Himself *would do* this thing. I am finding that to be a very uncomfortable thing. You began your message by writing: "Your post does bring me to something I had wanted to fit in earlier: whether using the words "author," "cause," and "source" synonymously is correct here." Are they not essentially synonomous? I do not see in the remainder of your message an explaination of why they are not. Then, immediately following that statement, you wrote: "Here is my understanding: Q: Where does sin originate? A: The sinful hearts of human beings." I do believe that sin originates in the hearts and minds of God's created beings (angels and humans), and that we are sinful by nature. We sin because we are sinners, not the other way around. But the strongly Calvanistic point of view, if I understand it at all, says more than that. It says that sin originates from God before the foundation of the world in that God decreed (predetermined, predestined) every detail of history! Am I mistaken in this? Anyway, that question more properly belongs back in our discussion on Gal. 2:17. The question I would like answered here (2Sa. 12:11-12) is "how can God say and/or do this without it compromising His holiness?" If it is wrong for people to perform these actions, then must it not also be wrong for God to *cause* them to do this? Have a very good day. As always, I am looking forward to your reply. Bob |
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4 | Does this mean God is the author of sin? | 2 Sam 12:11 | Reformer Joe | 16463 | ||
Bob: Nothing like this week's events to be a laboratory for this discussion... Rather than attempt to answer you again myself, I would like to point you to another Reformed minister, John Piper, so perhaps he can explain it in a clearer way than I have. The URL is below, and I would love to hear your comments on it: http://www.desiringgod.org/Online_Library/OnlineArticles/Subjects/Suffering/GodAndEvil.htm However, I would like to point out one thing that I have neglected to mention before, having to do with your last statement: "If it is wrong for people to perform these actions, then must it not also be wrong for God to *cause* them to do this?" My answer would be "no." The reason has to do with the difference between God and us. There are a lot of things that God does and still remains holy, by virtue of the fact that He is the Creator and has a right to do what he wants with His creation. For example, it is morally wrong for me to take a human life in most circumstances, but by virtue of being God, he does have the right to do so. Therefore, a core aspect of sinfulness is the very fact that we place ourselves in the place of God, claiming rights and privileges that only He rightfully possesses. Therefore, our sinfulness is often not the deviation from God's moral character, but rather the "cosmic treason" against our heavenly King, as R.C. Sproul puts it; making ourselves (the creation) out to have the same rights as God (the Creator). In this way, I would argue that there are things that God can and does do which are sin for us to do. Thanks! --Joe! |
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