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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
81 | Is sinless perfection possible on earth? | 1 John 1:8 | Morant61 | 228690 | ||
Part II 2) What does Scripture say about the 'old man'? As there are only three verses which mention the 'old man', it is fairly simple to find out what Scripture says about him. First of all, Rom. 6:6 tells us that the 'old man' has been crucified with Christ; hence, he is dead. He is not on life support, fighting to maintain control. He is dead. Secondly, Col. 3:9 tells us that believers have 'put him off'. The verb used describes the past action of taking off the old man like a set of dirty clothes. What does this mean for us? It means that we do not have two competing natures. We are literally new creations. 2 Cor. 5:17 - “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!” We are not individuals who 'will' be made new. We have been made new. Does this mean that a Christian can no longer sin? No! I will try to post a study later on Paul's use of the word 'sarx' or 'flesh'. No where does Scripture tell us that it is impossible for us to sin, because we can still choose to obey the 'sarx'. However, at the same time, no where does Scripture tell us that we have two natures competing against one another. This is an important concept to grasp as we try to understand the relationship between sin and a believer. Some would have us to believe that the best one can hope for in this life is to give in to the old man less and give in to the new man more. But, this falls far short of the decisive and victorious comments of Scripture regarding sin. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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82 | Is sinless perfection possible on earth? | 1 John 1:8 | Morant61 | 228689 | ||
Greetings Edb! If I am following you correctly, you are asking do we have one or two natures as Christians. Allow me to re-post a couple of posts that I wrote awhile back that deal with this issue. _______________ There are three passages, all by Paul, that use the phrase 'old man': Rom. 6:6, Col. 3:9, and Eph. 4:22. Rom. 6:6 - “knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, that our body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin;” Col. 3:9 - “Do not lie to one another, since you laid aside the old self with its evil practices,” Eph. 4:22 - “that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit,” What happens to the 'old man' in a believer? Anthony Hoekema writes (in Five Views of Sanctification by Zondervan Publishing House, 1987): “On the question of the relation between these two selves, Reformed theologians differ. Most of them, particularly those who taught and wrote some years ago, hold that the old self and the new self are distinguishable aspects of the believer. Before conversion believers have an old self; at the time of conversion, however, they put on the new self – but without totally losing the old self. The Christian, on this view, is understood to be partly a new self and partly an old self – something like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. At times the old self is in control, but at other times the new self is in the saddle; the struggle of life, according to this view, is the struggle between these aspects of the believer's being.” (pg. 78). Does Scripture support the notion that believers have two natures at the same time? To answer this question, let us consider several points: What is the 'old man'?, and what does Scripture says about the 'old man'? 1) What is the old man? There is nothing in Scripture to indicate that the 'old man' is our sin nature. Again, Hoekema writes: “What does Paul mean here by the 'old self'? Murray suggests that this expression designates 'the person in his unity as dominated by the flesh and sin.' In other words, Paul is here talking about a totality: the total person enslaved by sin,' what we all are by nature. That 'person enslaved by sin,' he is saying, was crucified with Christ. When Christ died on the cross, He dealt a deathblow to the old self we once were. Given the meaning of 'crucified,' Romans 6:6 states with unmistakable clarity that we are no longer the old selves we once were.” (pg. 79). This is an important point. There is nothing to indicate in any of the three verses dealing with the 'old man' that we, as Christians, are both 'old man' and 'new man' at the same time. In the first place, Rom. 6:6 tells us that the 'old man' has been crucified with Christ. The result of crucifixion is death. Yet, according to the traditional reformed view, the 'old nature' is still alive and kicking. Here is how one proponent (Herman Bavanick) of this view describes the relationship between the 'old man' and the 'new man' (as quoted by Hoekema): “The struggle (in the Christian life)...is between the inner man of the heart, which has been created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness, and the old man who, though driven out of the center, still wants to maintain his existence, and who fights all the more fiercely the more territory he loses...This is the struggle between two people in the same person...In every deliberation and deed of the believer, therefore, good and evil are as it were mingled together;...in all his thoughts and actions something of the old and something of the new man is present.” (pg. 78). Notice how far short this description falls from what Scripture actually says. Scripture doesn't say that the 'old man' has been 'driven out of the center', or that the 'old man' is fighting fiercely as he loses more territory. It says that he has been crucified. I will address the second question in my next post! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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83 | Is sinless perfection possible on earth? | 1 John 1:8 | Morant61 | 228688 | ||
Greetings Edb! I would answer 'both' in one sense. It is a goal that we strive for in that we will not be perfect until we are glorified, but it is a possibility in this life in the sense that Christ has given us everything we need to live holy right now. But, sin is always an option in this life. We can always choose to disobey God, the difference for the believer is that we don't HAVE TO disobey God. I hope that helps! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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84 | Is sinless perfection possible on earth? | 1 John 1:8 | Morant61 | 228685 | ||
Greetings EdB! If you check the post I just made to Biblicalman, I ask a simple question. Does Rom. 7:14-25 simply describe someone who occasionally sins or someone who always sins? This has always been my problem with this particular approach to Rom. 7:14-25, in that in seems to ignore what the text actually says. Paul says in that passage that: - The good he wants to do, he does not do. - The evil that he does not want to do, he does do. These are absolute statements. He doesn't say that sometimes I do the evil that I don't want to do. These statements, in my mind, don't make sense in relation to Rom. 6, Rom. 8, and Gal. 5. But, they do make perfect sense in Paul is describing himself as he was, a Pharisee, who wanted to obey God's Law but could not because of his sinful nature. Just something to think about my friend! Keep up the excellent studies! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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85 | Is sinless perfection possible on earth? | 1 John 1:8 | Morant61 | 228684 | ||
Greetings Biblicalman! You wrote: "He was not of course talking about what most people see as sins. He did not lead a defeated life. That is where we go astray. He was talking of his awareness that he fell short of Christlikeness." This is a common view that I often see when I hear people say that Rom. 7:14-25 describes Paul from the perspective of a mature believer. The impression is given that Rom. 7:14-25 describes a Christian who, though mostly living holy, occasionally sins. However, that is not what Rom. 7:14-25 actually says. Paul says: 1) "...For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do." (Rom. 7:15) The present tense is used which indicates present, continuous action. 2) He says that he is (present tense) a slave to sin. (Rom. 7:14 and 7:25. Yet, in Rom. 6:6, 6:7, 6:14, 6:17, and 6:18, Paul explicitly says that we are not slaves to sin. From your perspective, how would you harmonize these apparently conflicting statements? Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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86 | Is sinless perfection possible on earth? | 1 John 1:8 | Morant61 | 228683 | ||
Greetings Biblicalman! You made your statement so precise that I thought perhaps there was a rule somewhere that said the same thing you were saying. So, if I understand your response correctly, your statement is simply a statement of your opinion concerning the passage. Which is fine! We are allowed to have opinions. However, if my opinion is that Paul was using an historical present, I am not violating any established rules of Greek grammar. :-) Now, allow me to demonstrate why I believe Paul is using an historical present. Perhaps that will shed some light on my thinking. If Paul is not using an historical present, then he makes the following contradictory statements. 1) Slaves or not: Rom 6:18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness. Rom 7:14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 2) To sin or not to sin: Rom 6:12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. Rom 7:18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. There are other examples but let's stop there for the moment. If in Rom. 7:14-25, Paul is describing his present experience as a Christian, then Paul is directly contradicting everything he has to same about the sin nature in Rom. 6, Rom. 8, and Gal. 5. If Paul is speaking in Rom. 7:14-25 in the historical present of his experience prior to coming to Christ, as a Pharisee who wanted to obey the Law of God but could not since he was a slave to his sin nature, then Rom. 7:14-25 is in perfect harmony with Rom. 6, Rom. 8, and Gal. 5. By the way, for those who believe that Paul is simply describing himself from the perspective of spiritual maturity, where he is able to look at his 'holy' live and still see how far it falls short of God's glory, there is one fatal flaw. Rom. 7:14-25 does not say that he sometimes fails to live up to God's standards. It says that he ALWAYS fails to do so. Is that really a normative description of the Christian life in relation to sin? Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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87 | Is sinless perfection possible on earth? | 1 John 1:8 | Morant61 | 228666 | ||
Greetings Biblicalman! You wrote: "It is true that sometimes the present can be viewed historically, but not when it is specifically contrasted with the past in the same context." What is your authority for this statement? I have studied Greek, but I don't recall ever reading such a rule concerning the historical present. But, I have slept since then. :-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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88 | Is sinless perfection possible on earth? | 1 John 1:8 | Morant61 | 228637 | ||
Greetings Biblicalman! Good observations, but just to set the record straight. There is in Greek an historical present, were the present tense can be used to describe past events or actions. No everyone agrees that Romans 7:14-25 is an historical present, but it is possible. Thus, tense alone will not answer this question. :-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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89 | Is sinless perfection possible on earth? | 1 John 1:8 | Morant61 | 228636 | ||
Greetings Ed! my quote was from the NIV, which says 'keeps on sinning'. The justification for that is present tense of the verbs used, which usually indicate ongoing action in the present time. Not everyone agrees with that translation, but I do. Thus, 1 John 3:6 is not referring to individual acts of sin, but an habitual pattern of ongoing sin. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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90 | Is sinless perfection possible on earth? | 1 John 1:8 | Morant61 | 228635 | ||
Greetings Ed! I have a book in my library that I would recommend for this topic. It is called: Five Views of Sanctification It goes into five different views, along with the rebuttals by the other views. It will give you a wealth of information. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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91 | Is sinless perfection possible on earth? | 1 John 1:8 | Morant61 | 228618 | ||
Greetings Ed! I'll have to make this quick as I am missing out on valuable (and rare) sleep. :-) Let me answer the main thrust of your post with a couple of questions? 1) If John meant that Christians will keep on sinning as a normative event in their lives, why did he say: 1Jn 2:1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. Or, 1Jn 3:8-9 He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. (9) No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 2) If Paul meant by Romans 7 that Christians cannot help but sin, why did he write: Rom 6:1-2 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? (2) By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? Or, Rom 6:6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin-- Or, Rom 8:8-9 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. (9) You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. My point is this: We can base our beliefs on our experience or on what God's word says. It doesn't matter how many times I sin, if God's word says that I don't have to, then it is true. :-) Since the old man is dead, I don't believe that is the source of temptation. James 1:13-15 describes the process of temptation and sin. We are tempted when we put ourselves in positions that we should not be in. The devil doesn't make us do it. We choose to do it. Scripture gives us the promise that if we walk in the Spirit, we won't sin. I've got to go to bed now! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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92 | Is sinless perfection possible on earth? | 1 John 1:8 | Morant61 | 228616 | ||
Greetings Ed! Did you mean 1 John 1:8? If so, 1 John was written to deal with an early form of gnosticism. They held several false notions. 1) That they had no sin nature. 2) That Christ did not come in the flesh. These are the two errors that John deals with in 1 John. 1 John 2:1 demonstrates that John did not mean in 1 John 1:8 that all of us MUST continue to sin, since he wrote: "I write this to you so that you will not sin." His statement in 1 John 3:6 also makes this point clear: 1Jn 3:6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. I hope this helps! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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93 | Is sinless perfection possible on earth? | 1 John 1:8 | Morant61 | 228612 | ||
Greetings Beja! I looked up 228468. That was an excellent post my friend! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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94 | Is sinless perfection possible on earth? | 1 John 1:8 | Morant61 | 228606 | ||
Greetings Beja! I was just heading to bed when I saw your posts. :-) I'll try to address your main points without being overly long winded. 1) Temptation/Sin: I would distinguish between temptation and sin. I would not see temptation as being sin, but giving into to temptation would be sin. But, since your post doesn't depend upon that distinction, we can go on. 2) One would think that all Christians would agree that we are able to live holy here and now. But, many Christians view Rom. 7 as normative for Christian living and see any suggestion of true freedom from sin as being unbiblical. What you are calling entire sanctification, I would call glorification. The difference primarily being one of degree. Those who are sanctified CAN still sin, but those who are glorified CANNOT still sin. Sanctification is tough to define precisely because Scripture speaks of it in so many different ways. Scripture speaks of it as an accomplished past act: 1 Cor. 6:11, Heb. 10:29, 1 Cor. 1:2, and others. Scripture also speaks of it as an ongoing process: Heb. 10:14. Scripture also speaks of it as a future act as well: Rom. 6:19, and 6:22. The easiest explanation that I can think of at this moment is that sanctification has to do with a believers relationship to the flesh (or Sarx). Some believe that Christians live life day by day with competing impulses from the Spirit and from the sarx. Sometimes we follow the Spirit, and sometime we follow the sarx. In this view, sin in inevitable until glorification takes place. My understanding of Scripture is that the sarx is truly dead for a Christian and we no longer have to listen to it. Ephesians 2:3 describes the lost as 'gratifying the desires of the sarx'. But, Rom. 8:9 says of Christians - “You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.” Gal. 5:16 makes it clear that anyone living by the Spirit will not gratify the desires of the sarx. In short, I believe that Sanctification refers to God's act of recreating us so that the old man is dead, and we are new men able to obey Him. (Rom. 6:6, Col. 3:9, and Eph. 4:22). As you pointed out, we can also disobey Him. But, this is a huge change because before Christ, we could only disobey Him. :-) I hope this helps answer some of your questions. If not, let me know and I'll try to be more detailed when I am more awake. ;-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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95 | Is sinless perfection possible on earth? | 1 John 1:8 | Morant61 | 228597 | ||
Greetings Again! Here is one more link that contains a number of quotes concerning the actual positions of Arminians: http://counteringcalvinism.wordpress.com/category/semi-pelagianism/ Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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96 | Is sinless perfection possible on earth? | 1 John 1:8 | Morant61 | 228596 | ||
Greetings Doc! We have discussed before my conviction that calling Arminians "Semi-Pelagian" is a false accusation, so I won't beat that dead horse. :-) But, for those who would like to explore this topic further, I would suggest the following article: http://evangelicalarminians.org/node/365 Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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97 | Don't understand Revelation and 1 Cor 15 | 1 Cor 15:28 | Morant61 | 228302 | ||
Greetings Biblicalman! A word of advice from long experience, if you are going to compose a long post, use a word processor and then paste it to the forum. :-) Too many bad things can happen otherwise! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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98 | Don't understand Revelation and 1 Cor 15 | 1 Cor 15:28 | Morant61 | 228301 | ||
Greetings Biblicalman! I haven't read all of this thread yet, but I did want to respond to your point about 'literalism'. 'Literalism' does not mean that there cannot be figures of speech, or hyperbole's, or poetic language. This is a common misunderstanding about being literal. Taking a literal approach to Scripture simply means that Scripture means what it says. If a passage is poetry, it should be read as poetry. If a passage is a metaphor, it should be read as a metaphor, ect.... Thus, in the instance that you have cited (Is. 2), one could argue that Isaiah is simply using poetic language to describe the exaltation of God's temple and His worship over all of the arrogance of fallen man. This would fit well with Is. 2:17 - " The arrogance of man will be brought low and the pride of men humbled; the LORD alone will be exalted in that day," Of course, it is certainly possible that God could raise the mountain upon which the temple is place above all other mountains. He is certainly able to do that! ;-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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99 | Exactly what does Mark 15:42 mean | Mark 15:42 | Morant61 | 228202 | ||
Thanks Searcher! I am enjoying the article. Here is another link that summarizes all of the views. http://www.gotquestions.org/three-days.html Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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100 | 2 Timothy 1:7 different translations | 2 Tim 1:7 | Morant61 | 226931 | ||
Greetings Makarios! Great answer my friend! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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