Results 21 - 40 of 72
|
||||||
Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Author: bubbatate Ordered by Verse |
||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
21 | Self control and Spirit controlled? | 1 Cor 9:25 | bubbatate | 52894 | ||
Continued from above....... All of the above refute the mantra…..”We are not under the Law (Torah), we are under the New Covenant….the Old Covenant has passed away.” Whatever going from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant may mean, it does not mean the Torah has been abrogated. Jer 31:33 specifically states that "This is the (new) covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time," declares the LORD. "I will put my law (Torah) in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. (see Lev 26:1-12 and Rev 21:3). The Torah still stands under the New Covenant. It is in the mind and in the heart…..meaning your thinking is guided by Torah and it is in your heart…..i.e. it is an integral part of who you are. How does this happen? Go back to Eze 36:26, the LORD’s Spirit will “move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.” Heb 10:15-17 (below) quotes Jeremiah 31:33-34, and introduces the quote by calling it (to paraphrase), “The Holy Spirit’s testimony to us”, affirming that the New Covenant is the work of the Holy Spirit. Heb 10:15 The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says: 16: "This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws (Torah; Greek “nomos”) in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds." 17: Then he adds: "Their sins and lawless (Greek “anomos”) acts I will remember no more." It is interesting to note that the Greek translator of Hebrews (which was more than likely originally written in Hebrew) used the word “nomos” for Torah (the Hebrew word translated as “law” in Jer 31:33 which is being quoted), and “anomos”, translated as “wickedness” (Hebrew “avon” in Jer 31:34). This clearly shows what the writer’s, or translator’s, concept of “wickedness” was……if he translates “Torah” as “nomos”……then using the word “anomos” for wickedness shows that he understood “wickedness” as “Torahless”. Furthermore, look where else “anomos” is used: 2Th 2:3 “….that day (Day of the Lord) will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness (“anomia”) is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4: He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God….7:… the secret power of lawlessness (“anomia”) is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8: And then the lawless (“anomos”) one will be revealed, whom the Lord Y’shua will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9: The coming of the lawless (“anomos”) one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10: and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because THEY REFUSED TO LOVE THE TRUTH (see 2Ti 2:15-19 and James 1:18) AND SO BE SAVED. 11: For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that THEY WILL BELIEVE THE LIE. 12: and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness. “We are not under the Law (Torah)” is either the truth or a lie. I report….you decide. The word translated as “evil” doers” in Mt 7:23 (below) is also “anomia” (lawlessness). Y’shua is apparently talking to someone who thinks he’s been following the Lord and has been doing great things in the Lord’s name……someone who thought he was in the loop. He was somehow deceived (see 2Th 2:10, above). Y’shua calls him a doer of Torahlessness i.e. one who does not have Torah in his mind and heart. In Mt 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22: Many will say to me on that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles? 23: Then I will tell them plainly, I never knew you. Away from me, you evil (“anomia”; lawlessness; Torahlessness) doers!” So…..the “Torahlessness doer” will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven……who will? The one who does “the will of My Father who is in heaven”. If the first century believers wanted to search out the will of Y’shua’s Father…..where did they turn? Again…..there was no “New Testament” to refer to…..they had to go directly to “thus saith the LORD”. there is more....continued below |
||||||
22 | Self control and Spirit controlled? | 1 Cor 9:25 | bubbatate | 52895 | ||
continued from above...... Do contemporary Christian teachings agree with the above? No, in fact, they vehemently oppose that kind of teaching? Would the first generation believer have agreed with the analysis? I think so. This dissertation would have gone over a lot better then because they couldn’t come back with a, “Well, Paul says…….” Even if they had access to Paul’s letters, would the first generation believers have considered them “the Word of God”? No…..they were letters. They would have processed the verity of his e-mails by comparing what he had to say with the “thus saith the LORD” passages of the Torah and Prophets. Yet, from whence cometh most contemporary Christian doctrine? Most comes from a “Thus saith Paul”, even if it seems to contradict a “Thus saith the LORD”. However, for every “anti-law” statement Paul makes, he contradicts himself with a “pro-law” statement else where….eg. Gal 5:18 “But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.” But he also said, Ro 7:14,16, “We know that the law is spiritual…… I agree that the law is good.” (just ask if you want more examples of Paul contradicting himself…….this probably has more to do with the editing of Paul’s letters as they were passed around and copied, or miscopied, and recopied, ….Paul was no idiot). Peter addresses this “Paul problem” in II Pe 3:15, “His (Paul’s) letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.” How do you avoid this trap? If Paul contradicts, or seems to contradict, a “thus saith the LORD” you have to let Paul go……unless you plan on having to give an account to Paul as opposed to having to give an account to the LORD. Back to Eze 36:26…..since the Spirit “moves you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws”……..If one is not so moved, can that person say in truth that he is “born again”, “Spirit filled”, or under the “New Covenant”? Consider Mt 12:32, “Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.” This is serious business…….If one says, “we do not have to follow the decrees and laws of the Old Testament. “ is he speaking against the Holy Spirit whose very function is to move us to do them? On the same topic of a “new heart and “new spirit”, the LORD says, (Eze 18:30) "Therefore, O house of Israel, I will *judge you, each one according to his ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. **Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31: Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit (i.e. you must be born again). Why will you die, O house of Israel? 32: For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!” Affirmed in**Rev 3:3 and *20:12-13. What was one of the first words of Y’shua’s ministry? “REPENT!”. Mt 4:17 “From that time on Y’shua began to preach, Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near." (see Mt 7:21-23 again). Repent from what to what? Did they have a “new testament” to go to find out from what they had to repent. In light of Mt 7:21-23, I would say they, and we, have to go from Torahlessness (anomia) to Torah. But is all this really for us gentile types? Isa 56:1 This is what the LORD says: "Maintain justice (“mishpat”…this is the same word translated as “laws” in Eze 36:26) and do what is right, for my salvation (Y’shua) is close at hand and my righteousness will soon be revealed. 2: Blessed is the man (including gentiles; see v 6) who does this, the man who holds it fast, who keeps the Sabbath without desecrating it, and keeps his hand from doing any evil." 3: Let no foreigner (gentile) who has bound himself to the LORD say, "The LORD will surely exclude me from his people……6: And foreigners (gentiles) who bind themselves to the LORD to serve him, to love the name of the LORD, and to worship him, all who keep the Sabbath without desecrating it and who hold fast to my covenant—7: these I will bring to my holy mountain and give them joy in my house of prayer Their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house will be called a house of prayer for all nations."…..for all people (Jew and gentile).” I’m sure this is much more information than you bargained for, but I felt I had to go into as much detail as possible to avoid stirring up even more questions….which I probably did anyway. The LORD bless you and keep you………Bub |
||||||
23 | self control / spirit control | 1 Cor 9:25 | bubbatate | 52913 | ||
Dear 4 me, Parts 2 and 3 (I got long winded) of my response have shown up but it seems part one has not….so I’m repeating it here. I’m a neophyte to the Forum so I have no idea where part one got to. So here goes again. I Hope you’ll be able to get the whole package. I just tried to post this and it's too long, so this will be a two parter. I'm too detail oriented for this. Anyway...this is the beginning of the original note: I would like to expand further on the “answer you like”, which was excellent. What is the “truth and wisdom” we need? What is “His way” and “His authority” to which we must submit? First of all….what does the LORD say about His Spirit? That would be the first thing one would search out in contemplating a “Holy Spirit” dilemma. The LORD tells us exactly how His Spirit operates in Eze 36:26-27. I have always found it odd that I never heard a preacher quote Eze 36:26-27 when expounding on the Holy Spirit. I did see it quoted on the Forum but the quoter stopped with “follow my decrees” and omitted the last part, “and be careful to keep my laws”. My guess is that the offensive word “laws” must be avoided at all cost….just a guess. Eze 36:26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27: And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. (Affirmed in Rev 14:2.) Eze 11:19 I will give them an undivided heart and put a new spirit in them; I will remove from them their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh. 20: Then they will follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. They will be my people, and I will be their God. (Affirmed in Rev 21:3.) This the very essence of being “born again”? (See Jn 3:8 below). “Born again” is synonymous with “Born of the Spirit”. Jn 3:3 In reply Y’shua declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again……7: You should not be surprised at my saying, You must be born again. 8: The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit." |
||||||
24 | Self control and Spirit controlled? | 1 Cor 9:25 | bubbatate | 52914 | ||
a continuation……….. What can one see if he’s born of the Spirit? The Kingdom of God (Jn 3:3 above). Can there be a kingdom without a king or a king who does not “rule”, i.e. make rules, or “laws”…..to explain what is expected of his subjects, or servants? Look at Isa 2:2-3 (below) concerning “the last days”…..”the Torah (law or teachings) will go out from Zion……Jerusalem”, the capital of the Kingdom to which “all nations” will go to learn the King’s “ways…..his paths”. To be submissive to the King is to learn His ways “so that we may walk in His paths”. The Holy Spirit makes it easy……He moves us to do this if we choose to submit. Isa 2:2-3 “In the last days the mountain of the LORD's temple will be established as chief among the mountains; it will be raised above the hills, and all nations will stream to it. 3: Many peoples will come and say, "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways, so that we may walk in his paths." The law (Torah, teachings) will go out from Zion, the word of the LORD (Torah, teachings) from Jerusalem. Peter says in 1Pe 1:22, “…you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth….. 23: For you have been born again….through the living and enduring word of God (Torah, teachings).” Remember, there was no “New Testament” for the first generation believers to refer to. The original question to which I am responding asks….”How is it then, that we are to be both self controlled, and be filled (controlled) by the Holy Spirit?” As Peter says above, purify yourself by obeying the truth, this is the self control. What is the truth according to Peter? “The living and enduring word of God.” Where did the first generation believers find the living and enduring word of God? In the Law and the Prophets…..every “Thus saith the LORD” is His word as affirmed by Y’shua in Mt 4:4 “Y’shua answered (Satan), "It is written: Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God." Right there Y’shua says to live in accordance with “thus saith the LORD”……why would He quote Dt 8:3, especially to Satan? What is the “sword of the Spirit” according to Paul (below)? “The word of God” (Torah, teachings); again remembering there was no “New Testament”…..Paul wasn’t writing “the word of God”….he was writing about “the word of God”. Eph 6:11 “Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes…….17: Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.” What was revealed to John in the Revelation concerning getting victory over “the beast”? Rev 15:2 “And I saw…..those who had been victorious over the beast and his image and over the number of his name…..3: They….sang the song of Moses (see Dt 31:19, 24, and 30…the song is the Torah) the servant of God and the song of the Lamb (see Rev 19:30…”His name is “the Word of God”; Torah). This agrees with Y’shua’s victory over Satan in Mt 4:4 (above). There’s more………continued at Bubbatate 6/28/02 10:27 AM |
||||||
25 | self control / spirit control | 1 Cor 9:25 | bubbatate | 53381 | ||
Johnny......In response to your statement, "Me I am a Christian, as I said everything that moses taught that Jesus dont teach anymore I will not obey. But all the teaching that moses taught, and Christ continue taught I will obey that." Moses taught that bestiality is a no-no......Y'shua did not......does that mean it's ok? It makes your above comment seem very foolish. Sorry......Bub |
||||||
26 | self control / spirit control | 1 Cor 9:25 | bubbatate | 53383 | ||
Dear Steve: Re your comment, "We are to walk in the Torah as Yeshua did." Not so. We are released from the law. Are you denying I Jn 2:6....."walk as Y'shua did"? 1Jn 2:3 We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. 4 The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Y'shua did. Thanks.....Bub |
||||||
27 | self control / spirit control | 1 Cor 9:25 | bubbatate | 53393 | ||
Dear Simchat…….I have been looking forward daily to your postings….I find them both fascinating and scholarly. I have been studying our “Jewish Roots” for about five years so what you are saying is not totally foreign to me. It was a Jewish/Christian speaking at my church who motivated me to look into the Jewishness of Y’shua, the apostles, and in fact, the entire first generation of believers…..they were all Jewish, or gentiles who converted from paganism to Judaism. I have tried to analyze everything in that light, as who is more reliable as our role models than those who were originally on the scene? A lot of Bible teachers send us back to the “early church fathers” to see what things were like, but even they in most cases were far removed in years from the original band of our “early Jewish fathers”. I thought your explanation on “Torah” (copied below) was absolutely wonderful…..I looked up “Torah” in Strong’s a long time ago…..and wondered why it was translated as “law” instead of “teaching”….this has led to many problems. I have also long thought that “Torah” was what Y’shua was speaking of when He spoke of “the will of My Father”…..what else could it be? Your comments on Torah: “Many confuse the term Torah with Law, the Hebrew word does not mean law but teachings. The translation into Law is a result of the use of the Greek word nomos to translate Torah. The term law brings a negative view of Torah rather than a positive view as it should be. Law is the rules of a government binding on the people where violation is punished. Torah is the teachings of a parent to his children where violation is disciplined. Within Law there is no room for growth. Torah allows for growth. A child grows and learns how to take care of his responsibilities, just as we are to in the Torah.” I have come to look at Torah in a manner similar to a mother putting a check off list on the refrigerator for her child……..Did you remember to: Make your bed Brush your teeth Wash behind your ears There comes a time when the list is no longer necessary……the child does it automatically for the rest of his life without even thinking……..however, before that point the child may need a little “motivating”………(can “time out” be equated to “the exile”? Insert smiley face here.) This is how I view “the Torah in one’s heart”……..it’s your way of life…….not a list that you have to agonize over. A pastor once told me, “We don’t have to do Torah because it’s in our hearts.” This made about as much sense to me as a husband saying to his wife, “I’m leaving you for my secretary but you will always be in my heart.” (ooooooooohhhhhh……could this be some insight into, “you have left your first love”?). And there are the other statements I’ve heard many times (including from the pulpit)…..”We don’t have to do the Torah because Jesus did it for us.”……or “Jesus performed the Torah perfectly so we don’t have to do it.” Do these make sense? I have learned to carefully discern things that are said, including preachers……there was a time when I would have turned around and quoted the same nonsense to someone else……not any more……that’s how bad theology gets passed around and ends up etched in stone. Thanks again for sharing the fruits of your studies………Bub P.S. to those on the Forum who would like a heads up on Jewish roots……check out “God’s Grand Strategy: Going Back to our Original Jewish Roots” at : www.revivalnet.org/Beit_Shalom/strategy.htm. |
||||||
28 | self control / spirit control | 1 Cor 9:25 | bubbatate | 53467 | ||
Dear Joe……in response to a healthy debate between you and Simchat….I would like to add my two shekles. Simchat said: "Too many people make the Torah and the covenant at Sinai synonymous, they are not, the Torah is eternal and an entity to itself." You said: “Demonstrate from the Bible that the Torah in its entirety had any implications for people outside the covenant people of Israel. The Law of Moses was given at the same time as the covenant was ratified.” Dt 4:5-8 (below) indicates that one of the functions of Torah was to witness to the nations the superiority of the LORD and His ways: Dt 4:5 See, I have taught you decrees and laws as the LORD my God commanded me, so that you may follow them in the land you are entering to take possession of it. 6 Observe them carefully, for this will show your wisdom and understanding to the nations, who will hear about all these decrees and say, "Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people." 7 What other nation is so great as to have their gods near them the way the LORD our God is near us whenever we pray to him? 8 And what other nation is so great as to have such righteous decrees and laws as this body of laws I am setting before you today? Torah was supposed to have an affect upon people outside the covenant, but never imposed upon them. Just like people all over the world hear about the United States and want to come here and live under our system, our Constitution, I believe Israel was supposed to so move other people……to entice them to become an Israelite, or pattern their nation after Israel’s example and live under Torah, Israel’s constitution. This is the pattern prescribed for THE LAST DAYS in Isa 2:2-3……notice, the Torah is not a mandate externally imposed on the nations, the nations are enthusiastically seeking the Torah: Isa 2:2 “In the LAST DAYS days the mountain of the LORD's temple will be established as chief among the mountains; it will be raised above the hills, and ALL NATIONS will stream to it. 3 Many peoples will come and say, "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways, so that we may walk in his paths." The law (Torah) will go out from Zion, the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.” (notice “Torah” and “the word of the LORD” are synonymous). Does the New Covenant with Israel have any implications for the people outside the New Covenant people of Israel? No……..except as mentioned above for the Old Covenant……outsiders are free to join up, just as they are in Isa 56:6. The Torah must carry over to the New Covenant and not go away with the Old because it is the mainstay of the N.C. (Jer 31:33)……Torah is in your minds and your hearts. In fact, I can’t understand how anyone can bad mouth the Torah and say they are “New Covenant people”……. The New Covenant IS only for Israel and Judah. (Jer 31:31)…and Torah is in your mind and heart (Jer 31:33)….if one fails to meet either of these criteria….it is impossible to be His New Covenant people. continued next........ |
||||||
29 | self control / spirit control | 1 Cor 9:25 | bubbatate | 53468 | ||
continued from above...... Ultimately, I don’t believe that anyone from “the nations”, or any biological Jew, for that matter, is going to be on the scene except for those who enthusiastically choose Torah as in Isa 2:3. So, to respond to your statement, “Demonstrate from the Bible that the Torah in its entirety had any implications for people outside the covenant people of Israel.” It can’t be demonstrated for it was never so, Torah never had any implications for anyone outside of the LORD’s covenants……neither Old nor New..…except that hopefully others of the nations (that’s us) would choose to “bind themselves to the LORD” by choosing to come under His covenant. (again, see Isa 56:6). If I may insert a side bar here for Johnny……he referred to Torah as “your Torah” when addressing Simchat……in one respect it is Simchat’s Torah in that he has chosen Torah, it is in his mind and heart…….but I don’t think that was what Johnny meant. Torah is “thus saith the LORD”…….it is His Torah and the word of the LORD stands forever. What did Y’shua have to say to satan? “It is written: Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God." (Mt 4:4). Where do we find “every word that comes from the mouth of God” that man is to “live on”? Isn’t He saying, to paraphrase, “Man lives on Torah alone”? Is it a coincidence that Messiah Y’shua affirms the Torah in satan’s face? “Every word that comes from the mouth of God” is Torah, which is translated as “nomos/law” in the NT. The one who comes against Y’shua, the anti-messiah, satan’s henchman, is referred to as “anomos” (without “nomos”/lawless) in II Th 2:8. There you have it……The Messiah Y’shua is pro-Torah, the anti-messiah is anti-Torah……..Y’shua is the master of Truth, the anti-messiah is the master of deceit through lies. If Y’shua would come back today and preach, “Man is to live by every word that comes from the mouth of God…..and that’s the Torah” he would be dismissed as the “anti-christ” by most Christians, because that statement does not line up with their theology. If one sees Jesus as having abolished the “nomos”…….that makes Jesus “anomos”. An ominous conclusion. The defense rests…… Thanks Joe…….Bub |
||||||
30 | self control / spirit control | 1 Cor 9:25 | bubbatate | 53581 | ||
Greetings back at ya, Steve, I really didn’t want to make an issue out of bestiality……I just used it as an illustration in addressing Johnny’s remark. However, I would like to respond to some of the points that you made. You said: “God's law is written on our minds and in our hearts (Jeremiah 31:33), not in the Torah.” Your statement doesn’t compute since “Torah” is the Hebrew word used in Jer 31:33 so your statement would actually read……”God’s Torah is written on our minds and in our hearts, not in the Torah.” It doesn't make sense. You said: “We have the gift of the Holy Spirit to help us to discern it (John 14:26).” We need discernment on a lot of the Torah in many cases…..i.e. how do we accurately apply it to our 21st century culture……e.g. “Do not kindle a fire on the Sabbath”. Some discern this as do not use your stove, microwave or car (internal combustion engine),etc. My personal take is that building a fire was “work” lo those 4000 years back and since the focus of the Sabbath is no work, it is not the fire per se which was a no no but the work involved in kindling same. As for the Holy Spirit’s role concerning the Torah……We have the gift of the Holy Spirit to enable us to do Torah (Eze 36:26-27). You said: “Jesus told his followers to follow his commands (John 14:21), not the commands the Father gave Moses.” Are you saying that the Father and the Son are on different wave lengths? The Father gave the commandments to “His people” through Moses. Are you one of “His people”? What are you going to do with Rev 12:17, 14:12 and I Jn 2:3-6; 3:21-24; 5:2-3; II Jn 1:4-6, all of which, with specificity tell us to obey the commandments of the Father. What did Y’shua mean when He said, “Do the will of My Father”? (Mt 1:21; 12:50). If Y’shua and the Father are one, the commandments they promote are identical or else they are a house divided. You said: “And we have the grace of God and the shed blood of Christ to cover us when we make a mistake in knowing or following them (see, for example, the New Testament).” I remember the “everybody makes mistakes” crowd in defending Bill Clinton’s adultery……locking your keys in the car is a mistake…adultery is intentional sin. There is no grace nor sacrifice for willful sin, including the blood of Y’shua. See I Jn 3:9; 5:18 and especially look at Heb 10:26-31 below and the comments following. HEB 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." Notice…..The writer of Hebrews quotes Torah to make his point…..if Torah was just for “Old Testament” Hebrew types….why is he quoting it to make a New Testament point? Also, what he quoted was Dt 32:35 and 36 which is included in the “Song of Moses” of Rev 15:3. The “Song of Moses” is the Torah….see Dt 31:22 and 24. You said: “You can't expect Christians to welcome the spectre of works-righteousness or the heavy yoke of the Law.” That is not my expectation by a long shot, I know that Christians love their doctrines…..but keep in mind….I am not spewing my opinions…..I am just asking you to consider scripture which has been long overlooked by most Christians. Y’shua taught “do” and “teach” the commandments in the Torah (Mt 5:19)……not for brownie points but because it’s the law of the land in the Kingdom. As to “the heavy yoke of the Law”, it’s ironic that Ps 119 extols the magnificence of, exuberant joy in, and love of the Torah, yet most Christian’s see Torah as “a burden/a heavy yoke”. Christians will enthusiastically sing from Ps 119:105 “Thy word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path.” (The Amy Grant version, of course……sorry, couldn’t resist). In the context of Ps 119…..Christians are thereby singing, “Your Torah is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path.” In song they profess Torah and in doctrine adamantly deny it. Thanks Steve…….Bub |
||||||
31 | self control / spirit control | 1 Cor 9:25 | bubbatate | 53585 | ||
Hey again, Steve....trying to get caught up on correspondence...... Re your comment: "No, I'm not denying that passage (I Jn 2:6). But how did Jesus walk that we should imitate? Total obedience to the Father." Then you cite Php. 2:5-8 about Y'shua's obedience in going to the cross. What are you saying? That's a wonderful scripture that you quoted, but what does that have to do with OUR "total obedience to the Father"? Y'shua walked as a Torah obedient Jew....isn't that the pattern for how we should walk? Thanks Steve.........Bub |
||||||
32 | self control / spirit control | 1 Cor 9:25 | bubbatate | 53627 | ||
Dear Joe…… I can’t find the posting to which you responding, I apologize…..can you give me the date and time etc. so I can find it? Re your comment: “You failed to address my arguments regarding Acts 15, Galatians, Ephesians 2, Colossians 2, and Hebrews, all which apparently point out that the ceremonial and sacrificial aspects of the Torah have been consummated in Yeshua.” I can still can address the statement……you use the word “apparently”……can you give me a “definitely”? The sacrificial aspects being over, I can buy……there’s no physical temple, ergo there can be no physical sacrifices……yet Paul was still making sacrifices after the resurrection while the temple was still standing. What do you mean by “ceremonial” aspects? The Levitical services? Again, with no temple the Levites are out of a job. Re your comment: “What do you do with Galatians if the ENTIRE Torah is binding on all of God's covenant people today?” That’s easy……..I go to Mt 5:18-19, Y’shua said it….that settles it. Thanks Joe…….Bub |
||||||
33 | self control / spirit control | 1 Cor 9:25 | bubbatate | 53638 | ||
Dear Joe, I’m afraid I cannot agree with your segmenting of the Law into moral and ceremonial facets, especially in relationship to Ps 119……. the word “all” shows up 7 times in Ps 119……as in, for instance, Ps 119:160 “ALL your words are true; all your righteous laws are eternal.” (see also Ps 119:6, 13, 86, 128, 151, 172). EVERY “thus saith the LORD”, according to Ps 119:160, is not only true but true for all eternity. You said, “It is God's moral commandments for our behavior which David embraces in Psalm 119 (and in Psalm 19 as well).” In what verse is this “moral” only aspect stated? As for “What Christians (and the Jewish believers) saw as a heavy yoke is the ceremonial aspects of the Law and the sacrificial requirements that came with violating God's moral commandments.” That statement assumes that the first generation Christians were going around breaking moral commandments and it was such a hassle to do the sacrifice thing…….there’s an easy way to avoid the hassle……don’t sin. I’m sure going to prison is a “burden” for someone who breaks our civil laws…….but I don’t, on a personal level, see going to prison as burden……I choose not to break the law….ergo the burdensome penalty will never affect me. I also notice that you mention Christians AND Jewish believers……..were there two separate factions? Under what category is the commandment, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind."? (Mt 22:37; quoting Dt 6:5). Moral or ceremonial? Or is there yet a third category? Also notice that Deuteronomy (Dt 11:1,13,22 etc.)goes on to define loving the LORD as keeping ALL His commandments…….would Y’shua have meant anything less when He quoted Dt 6:5? Did John, in IJn 5:2-3 mean just some of the commandments? Unless otherwise specifically substantiated.....the only safe way to go is to go with ALL. Ex 20:6 speaks of “showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.” This statement is included in the first of the ten commandments…….but in that He uses the plural, "commandmentS", He cannot only be referring to the first commandment, but to the nine following as well…..including the 4th commandment, which I have noted has come up recently on the forum for discussion. Also…….are the “thousand generations” who are to love Him and keep His commandments” just Old Testament generations? I think not, do the math. Thanks Joe…….Bub |
||||||
34 | self control / spirit control | 1 Cor 9:25 | bubbatate | 53651 | ||
Salutations Steve, Sorry, I didn't mean to duck your questions.....as I said, I was responding to Johnny who in essense said he wanted nothing to do with the old testament, if Jesus didn't specifically teach it he’s not buying it". My example of bestiality was just an example of how you can't expect every nuance of life to be addressed with specificity in the NT......your list of questions illustrates the same point. It’s a no brainer which is why I didn’t even bother to respond. I had to use an Old Testament law to disprove his point because he was bad mouthing the OT. But then you are looking for me to cite a specific OT law against your list.....I never said that the OT commands were all inclusive…..but a lot of people, like Johnny, think that the NT is. You can’t imagine how sorry I am that I opened my big mouth about bestiality, yikes! However, I can’t let your other comments slide….You said: “And that was my point about misunderstanding or misapplying God's will to which you said "There is no grace nor sacrifice for willful sin, including the blood of Y’shua." With all due respect, that is pure bunk. Read 1 John 1:8-2:2.” With all due respect, get your scissors, I personally prefer a single edged razor blade, and remove Heb 10:26 and 29 from your Bible…..it’s pure bunk. I Jn 1:8 and 2:2 are great but you have to reconcile them with IJn 3:6, 9 and IJn 5:16-18…..John is saying there is a sin, AMONG THE BROTHERS…..that would indicate a sin committed by a professed believer…. that leads to death (one of those listed below)…..it apparently is a sin which the blood of Y’shua doesn’t cover. There are a host of sins in the OT for which there was no sacrifice…..the offender was the dead meat….no grabbing an animal and heading for the Tabernacle….they include: Breaking commandments 1 and 2--Lev 20:2 Breaking the 3rd commandment--Lev 24:14-16 Breaking the 4th commandment—Ex 35:2; Nu 15:33-35 Breaking the 5th commandment—Dt 21:18:21; Ex 21:15, 17; Lev 20:9 Breaking the 6th commandment--Ge 9:5-6; Nu 35:16-21, 30-33; Dt 17:6 Breaking the 7th commandment—Lev 20:10; Dt 22:22 Consulting a medium or spiritist—Lev 20:27 Prophesying falsely or propagating false doctrines—Dt 13:6-10 False worship—Dt 17:2—8 Promiscuity—Dt 22:20-21; Lev 21:9 Incest—Lev 20:11-12, 14 Practicing homosexuality—Lev 20:13 Bestiality—Ex 22:19 Rape of a betrothed virgin--Dt 22:25 Kidnapping--Ex 21:16; Dt 24: Witchcraft--Ex 22:18 Offering human sacrifice--Lev 20:2-5 Sacrificing to false gods--Ex 22:20 Refusing to abide by the decision of the court--Dt 17:12 Anyway……if there was no blood atonement for the above under the Old Covenant sacrificial system, there can be no atonement with Y’shua’s blood once you have professed commitment to the New Covenant……which can’t be stated more clearly than in Heb 10:26,29. If you would like me to address Galations please give me specific passages to look at. Thanks Steve…………Bub |
||||||
35 | self control / spirit control | 1 Cor 9:25 | bubbatate | 53701 | ||
Dear Hank…… I’m having an ongoing dialogue with Steve. My flippant use of the word “bunk” can’t be understood without knowing to what I am responding…..I didn’t think of the impact my statement would have when read as an isolated comment……..sorry. Here’s the deal, my original comment was, “There is no sacrifice for intentional, willful sin, including the blood of Y’shua. See I Jn 3:9; 5:18 and especially look at Heb 10:26-31 below and the comments following.” HEB 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.” Steve’s reply was, “And that was my point about misunderstanding or misapplying God's will to which you said "There is no grace nor sacrifice for willful sin, including the blood of Y’shua." With all due respect, that is pure bunk. Read 1 John 1:8-2:2. But I see why you're not worried about no longer being able to sacrifice since you have achieved perfection in this life. ;-) .” My remark, which you are addressing, was pure sarcasm……he said that what I said about there being no sacrifice, including Y’shua’s blood, for willful sin was “pure bunk”….if that statement is “pure bunk” then you have to conclude that Heb 10:26 is also “pure bunk”…that was my point. I hope you can follow that. Since I have your ear and respect your opinion…….am I correct in concluding that the sins for which there was no sacrifice in the OT, the penalty was death (I listed most of these in a post yesterday to Steve), is what Heb 10:26 is referring to? (Nu 15:30: " But anyone who sins defiantly, whether native-born or alien, blasphemes the LORD, and that person must be cut off from his people. [31] Because he has despised the LORD's word and broken his commands, that person must surely be cut off; his guilt remains on him.") Thanks Hank……..Bub |
||||||
36 | self control / spirit control | 1 Cor 9:25 | bubbatate | 53702 | ||
Dear IISa...... Hank's response to my now regretted and misunderstood post was similar to yours....please see my reply to him (7/8/02 6:44 am). What is your take on Heb 10:26-31? Thanks for your concern, I apologize......Bub |
||||||
37 | self control / spirit control | 1 Cor 9:25 | bubbatate | 53703 | ||
Dear Steve, I think what I Sa. is saying is pretty much what I said……if you obey you don’t have to worry about the sacrifice …….God prefers the obedience over screwing up and having to offer a sin sacrifice. What is “the heart of faith”? What is living by ones faith? Israel was admonished for being "unfaithful" or "faithless" in not having “faithfully” followed the LORD’s commandments. “Unfaithfulness” is disobedience…….ergo “faith” is obedience. Hab 2:4 could be read….”the righteous shall live by his obedience.” Dt 32:20 "I will hide my face from them," he said, "and see what their end will be; for they are a perverse generation, children who are unfaithful.” Who are unfaithful children? Children who are without faith. Notice this verse is from “The Song of Moses” referred to in Rev 15:3. Check ya later……..Bub |
||||||
38 | self control / spirit control | 1 Cor 9:25 | bubbatate | 53752 | ||
Hi Joe…… Here’s the deal…….I don’t know what to do with certain passages…….for instance, most Christians conclude they need not live Torah because Paul said: “The Law is not of faith” “I am dead to the Law” “We are delivered from the Law” “Messiah is the end of the Law for righteousness” “If you are led of the Spirit, you are not under the Law” “By deeds of the Law there shall no flesh be justified” “The Law brings wrath” Messiah “abolished in his flesh….the commandments” “A man is not justified by observing the Law but by faith in Y’shua Mashiach.” I, however, conclude that we are to live Torah because Paul said: “Do we make void the Law through faith? God forbid.” “With the mind I myself serve the Law of God.” “I delight in the Law of God.” “The righteousness of the Law might be fulfilled in us.” “The Law is spiritual.” “Doers of the Law shall be justified” “The Law is holy.” “The commandment is holy, just and good.” “The sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law.” “I worship the God of my fathers believing all things which are written in the Law and Prophets.” “We are created unto good works which God has before ordained that we should walk in them.” The same person, Paul, said everyone of these things…….please explain to me how do you reconcile both lists? What I do is look for another witness to confirm what Paul said. I can find witnesses to confirm the second list, but I cannot find a witness to confirm the first list. My comment, “Y’shua said it, I believe it.” was another sarcastic comment on my part (I have to stop doing that) as a parallel to the popular Christian saying, “God said it, I believe it.”….which strikes me as a goofy comment from someone who doesn’t believe that the seventh day is the Sabbath. Singing the Song of Moses and the Song of the Lamb……Bub |
||||||
39 | self control / spirit control | 1 Cor 9:25 | bubbatate | 53760 | ||
Hank......I can't thank you enough for the heads up on Spurgeon......it was awesome!!! It made me nostalgic for that "old time religion".....they just don't preach like that anymore. Thanks again.....Bub |
||||||
40 | self control / spirit control | 1 Cor 9:25 | bubbatate | 53786 | ||
Dear IISa…….. Thanks for your input. I don’t believe that all sin is willful, for instance, sometimes a “white lie” will be out of my mouth before I know it……sometimes I get angry without a moment’s notice and sometimes I say things hastily that I regret and know were wrong and hurtful…..sometimes I see a cool car and wish it was mine……those are sins, i.e. missing the mark…..but they were not willful, I did not decide to do them, but there they are…..I do confess these shortfalls and try to curb my impulsiveness in the future…..with varying degrees of success. A willful sin is one you contemplate before hand, know it’s wrong, and go for it anyway. Also, I believe that calling good evil and evil good is willful sin. For instance, many practicing homosexuals, with the blessings of their pastors, say that homosexual sex is not a sin….just because they choose not to accept God’s definition of sin they are, I think, in the LORD’s eyes sinning willfully and defiantly…..and the preachers who encourage them, in the name of “love” are false teachers. I know a certain popular TV preacher, who over and over again has said there’s no sin, past, present or future which is not forgiven once you have "received Jesus into your heart", and once saved always saved……almost like carte blanche……Those kinds of statements seem to mislead a lot of people into seeing “salvation” as their get out of jail free card. Look at the letters to the churches in the Revelation, Y’shua is speaking to “church” people, not heathens……5 out of 7 are messing up……he doesn’t comfort them with sweet talk about grace and forgiveness……He says “Repent or else!”. This was only about 60 years after the resurrection and five-sevenths of the congregations were in pathetic shape…..we are over 2000 years removed …….what’s contemporary Christendom’s ratio of right track vs wrong track today….can we assume it’s better or worse than two-sevenths going in the right direction? Of course, every denomination thinks that they are “Philadelphia” and the one around the corner is “Laodicia”. Mt 7:21 also comes to mind…… "Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord”, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. [22] Many will say to me on that day, “Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?” [23] Then I will tell them plainly, I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers (practitioners of lawlessness)!” Y'shua specifically defines who will be rejected, calling them “anomia” (no law or without law) doers……the opposite then, those who will enter the kingdom, would be those who live the Law (nomos) i.e. do the will of the Father as Y’shua said. (I’m sure you know this, but just to be clear…..when Greek puts an “a” in front of a word…..it is the opposite of that word. As in “atheist”……a “theist” is one who acknowledges God…..and we all know what putting an “a” in front of that means….it’s the exact opposite.) The above, Mt 7:21, is also talking about “church” people……not heathens…..they must be really serious and active “church” people….into prophesy, driving out demons and performing miracles…..all in the name of the Messiah (they’re “giving him the glory”)…..with all this going on they must also be very visible in the congregation and a huge influence on others. This is scary stuff. Y’shua is offering no grace and no blood covering.....they are already standing in His presence.....it’s too late for repentance, the grace period is over…..they’re dead meat. Were they knowingly sinning? Apparently not….they’re shocked to find that they’re not in the loop. My guess is they did not know they were sinning because their definition of sin was amiss…….which illustrates that ignorance, which is seen as ignoring the Torah in Hosea, is not an excuse. [Hos 4:6 “My people are destroyed from LACK OF KNOWLEDGE (ignorance). Because you have rejected knowledge, I also reject you as my priests; because YOU HAVE IGNORED THE TORAH OF YOUR GOD, I also will ignore your children.“] We don’t know specifically what the Mt 7:21 people were up to so that we can specifically avoid the pit they got themselves into……Y’shua simply categorizes them as “lawless”…….so how then can we avoid their downfall? By being “lawful” I would think……how do you practice “lawfulness”…..by being full of the Law (i.e. accept it fully, not partially). Frankly, and brutally, in my opinion…….I think that Christianity’s negating of the fourth commandment is a fatal flaw, I think it qualifies as “lawlessness”…..it is ignoring "the Torah of your God", as Hosea says above. Civilly speaking, you don’t have to break every law in the book to be deemed a criminal……choosing to break one of them will do….of course, this is also the point which James 2:10-11 is making concerning Torah. Continued…….see next post |
||||||
Result pages: << First < Prev [ 1 2 3 4 ] Next > Last [4] >> |