Results 21 - 40 of 138
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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
21 | "Once Saved Always Saved" | NT general Archive 1 | There | 25558 | ||
Since Tim already answered the second part of your post, I will comment on only the first part. You said: You believe the Catholic church contradicts the teachings of Jesus? You are incorrect. Since it has already been shown that the teachings of the Catholic Church do contradict some of the teachings of Jesus and the apostles (as you yourself have stated in regards to Mary, and also concerning Jesus being the ONLY means of salvation), all I can do is wonder why you now make a statement like that. Lisa, I'm certainly willing to discuss pure scripture. Which verse or verses would you like to discuss first? Your choice. God bless. |
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22 | "Once Saved Always Saved" | NT general Archive 1 | There | 25496 | ||
Martha, You said: I could never leave him, not even if I had a thousand Roman soldiers after me. I'm sure you feel the same way. Yes, I do. And it's a very safe and secure place to be... no matter how many Roman soldiers come at us. :) It truly did amaze me at first, that I was willing to give up anything and anyone to follow the Lord. I'd never had a conviction so strong before... it made me realize what Jesus meant in Matthew 10:34-39. In His love, |
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23 | "Once Saved Always Saved" | NT general Archive 1 | There | 25479 | ||
Here's one that appears to be church sanctioned as of 1997. http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm This on-line Second Edition English Translation of the Catechism of the Catholic Church includes the corrections promulgated by Pope John Paul II on 8 September 1997. These corrections to the English text of the Catechism of the Catholic Church were made to harmonize it with the official Latin text promulgated by Pope John Paul II on the same date. For details of the corrections, see the editio typica modifications to the Catechism of the Catholic Church. When you go to that site, click on the picture of the Catechism book. Then scroll down and click on "Article 9 - I Believe in the Holy Catholic Church", and you will find what I've copy and pasted below. PART ONE THE PROFESSION OF FAITH SECTION TWO THE PROFESSION OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH CHAPTER THREE I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY SPIRIT ARTICLE 9 "I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH" 748 "Christ is the light of humanity; and it is, accordingly, the heart-felt desire of this sacred Council, being gathered together in the Holy Spirit, that, by proclaiming his Gospel to every creature, it may bring to all men that light of Christ which shines out visibly from the Church."135 These words open the Second Vatican Council's Dogmatic Constitution on the Church. By choosing this starting point, the Council demonstrates that the article of faith about the Church depends entirely on the articles concerning Christ Jesus. The Church has no other light than Christ's; according to a favorite image of the Church Fathers, the Church is like the moon, all its light reflected from the sun. 749 The article concerning the Church also depends entirely on the article about the Holy Spirit, which immediately precedes it. "Indeed, having shown that the Spirit is the source and giver of all holiness, we now confess that it is he who has endowed the Church with holiness."136 The Church is, in a phrase used by the Fathers, the place "where the Spirit flourishes."137 750 To believe that the Church is "holy" and "catholic," and that she is "one" and "apostolic" (as the Nicene Creed adds), is inseparable from belief in God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. In the Apostles' Creed we profess "one Holy Church" (Credo . . . Ecclesiam), and not to believe in the Church, so as not to confuse God with his works and to attribute clearly to God's goodness all the gifts he has bestowed on his Church.138 Then check out http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm#III You may want to read from line 830-848 to get a better understanding of what the Catholic Catechism teaches as far as what/who the Catholic Church is, which also states what I've copied below. "Outside the Church there is no salvation" 846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336 Do you find this catechism book satisfactory? And just for the record, that last sentence up there "they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it", is saying that I'm not saved because I left the Catholic Church. Did you catch that? |
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24 | Is this the 'Complete Christian'? | NT general Archive 1 | There | 25465 | ||
Hi Norrie, The apostles didn't know Jesus would die until it happened. They didn't know Jesus would rise again either until it happened... so would Mary have known before hand? I keep thinking of the time Jesus taught at the Temple, while Joseph and Mary were heading home to Nazareth and after finding him Mary asked Jesus why He'd done that to them because they were beside themselves trying to find Him. Jesus reply was "Why is it that you sought Me? Did you not know that I must be about My Father's business?" (Luke 2:49). Luke 2:50 But they did not understand the statement which He spoke to them. I think that last verse is saying that Mary didn't understand exactly who Jesus was or she would have expected Him to be about His FATHER's business. And taking this a step further: if Mary did not realize exactly who Jesus was, or how God's salvation was to come through Jesus, then would she have known He was going to die on the cross before it happened? Or would she have been as in-the-dark about it as the apostles were until He died and rose again? Let me know what you think. |
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25 | Is this the 'Complete Christian'? | NT general Archive 1 | There | 25457 | ||
You said: When I said she knew he had to die, I was speaking about her pain at the time of his persecution. At the foot of his cross. Her acceptance of God's will. No where in the bible does it say anything about her crying or carrying on. You are right. It doesn't say "Mary wept or carried on". It is very much implied though. Luke 23:27-29 And there followed Him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed ("kopto" to beat the breast in grief; wail, lament, mourn) and lamented ("threneo" mourn, lament) Him. But Jesus, turning to them said, "Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep ("klaio" wail aloud, sob) for Me, but weep for yourselves and your children. For indeed the days are coming..." John 19:25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus His mother. and His mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. Mary was one of those who "followed" Jesus, and I assume one of the "daughters of Jerusalem" that Jesus referred to just before He died.(Someone please correct me if I'm wrong!) When she and Joseph presented Jesus in the Temple, she was told by Simeon that a "sword would pierce through her own soul". I would expect that it would have almost broken Mary's heart to watch her son die on that cross. Lisa, do you think Mary was too "strong" to weep or mourn the persecution and death of her son? Or that His pain would not have effected her since she had heard His gospel of life? In John 20:9 it states that the apostles did not yet know He would rise from the dead, and no where does it say that Mary did either. These are my reasons for thinking that Mary wept and mourned her son's death. Could you explain your reasons for thinking otherwise? |
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26 | "Once Saved Always Saved" | NT general Archive 1 | There | 25446 | ||
I know what you mean. I used to ask why, "if there is only ONE way to the Father"... then "why does the church teach other means of salvation". Such as works, purgatory, praying to Mary and the saints. Either there is ONE way, or there is NOT ONE way. And since the Bible teaches "one way", and those teachings (apostolic teachings) are what the Catholic Church claims to base their religion on... then the Church's whole teaching should agree with the apostolic teachings. Did that make sense? :) |
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27 | "Once Saved Always Saved" | NT general Archive 1 | There | 25443 | ||
I say, "Thank the Lord that they did not know where the Lord allowed Martha to go"... or they might have stopped her from learning from God's Word!!! And from experience... the confusion within the Church does cause confusion for young people. People act out what they believe, and in Martha's case it seems the many priests had different "beliefs" which in turn became different actions. The thing that I found the most dangerous as an adult, with children of my own, was that they thought if a priest said something -- then it had to be true because he would never lie. Early as possible, I got a Bible into each of my children's hands so they could find out what GOD had to say, rather than taking the word of me or anyone else. |
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28 | "Once Saved Always Saved" | NT general Archive 1 | There | 25442 | ||
Hello Martha, You mention several similarities with my own childhood into adulthood. My Catholic mother sent me to a one-week Methodist Bible camp for several summers where they taught Bible and only Bible. I'm not sure they still do though. We were from a small town -- about 90 percent Catholic, and the priest and Catholic townspeople turned on her with a vengeance for letting me go there. Actually threatened her in a variety of ways... but I won't get into that. I think what hit me the hardest was not even the difference in the teachings during those camp days, but the response of the Catholics who claimed to love all people during mass on Sunday, but could hate with such a vengeance when someone did not do as they said to do. I'm not saying all Catholics are like that, but it was that part of the EXPERIENCE that put the most CONFUSION in my mind as a child. The major change for me came when I began to read the Bible as an adult. I had taught CCD in the RCC for several years, and was a CCD teacher when I began reading God's Word. At that point I was so convicted that if the Catechism teachings differed from the Bible, I realized I could not teach it. I let my Religous Education Supervisor know why I could not teach the Catholic doctrine, and she understood and allowed me to teach Bible. Several of the children (different ages -different years) came to know Jesus as their Savior during those years. :) And wonderfully, their faith impacted the beliefs of their parents as they too began reading Bible. Almost like the domino effect in reverse! :) My all Catholic family and friends tolerated me when I was a Bible believing Catholic, but when I left the Church everything changed. When they realized that I was not "coming back" to the RCC, well... to put it mildly, I had to find all new friends. :) The response was very similar to the earlier situation 20 to 25 years earlier. It really saddened my heart, but during those days I found the Lord truly was sufficient for me. After much prayer and years later, the Lord has given me some members of my "family" back though. My mother and two sisters have come to know the Lord Jesus. It's amazing sometimes how the Lord works, but I especially praise Him for His saving works!!! God's WORD truly does change hearts! God bless you. |
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29 | "Once Saved Always Saved" | NT general Archive 1 | There | 25432 | ||
Can I still reply to you in the "neutral zone"? :) You said: When I try to explain what is actually taught I get "But..." But that's not what he said, but that's not what she said. Who are they? BUT ( joking here ) there are two things not taken into account in your statement. 1) "what is TAUGHT" by who? Isn't that why scripture has been provided to show that Jesus and the apostles "TAUGHT" something totally different at times? 2) And sometimes we (I) have mentioned something someone else has said, simply because it explains much better than just "giving my opinion" concerning things you have stated. Example: You say the Church teaches THIS, but the Church says it teaches THAT. If I make statements that are incorrect, I would certainly HOPE that someone would show me the difference. Are you trying to say that you prefer to believe what you believe, even if it disagrees with the teaching of Jesus and the apostles? ... and also believe that the Catholic Church Cathechism teaches things it does not teach? I hope you will clarify this for me. God bless. |
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30 | what is the true worship day sun. or sat | Col 2:16 | There | 25429 | ||
I should have done this in the beginning, but I didn't. So here is the meaning for "kai" from Strong's Concordance. Please note that "kai" can be translated either "and" or "or". KAI means: and, also, both, but, even, for, if, indeed, likewise, moreover, or, so, that, then, therefore, when, yea, yet. So which biblical scholars have claimed that it should be or can only be translated as "and" rather than "or"? And when (approximate year) did these scholars come to this conclusion? Tyndale was the first man to tranlate the Bible from the original Hebrew and Greek texts into English. Cloverdale's Bible was taken from Dutch and Latin sources. Roger's Bible was almost wholly copied from Tyndales. And the "Great Bible" was a compilation from Tyndale, Rogers, and Cloverdale. And the Geneva Bible was mainly based on Tyndale's, but with strongly Calvinistic notes. The original KJV in 1611 was extremely similar to Tyndale's translation (1525), even though the 1611 KJV was a revision, it was solely based on Tyndale's work. The KJV of today is an Americanized version of the 1611 KJV. Below is the type of "difference" between Tyndale's Bible, the 1611 KJV, and today's KJV. Tyndale's Bible - Hebrews 11:1: Fayth is a sure confidence off thynges which are hoped for, and a certayntie off thynges which are not sene. 1611 KJV - Hebrews 11:1: Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the euidence of things not seen. Americanized KJV - Hebrews 11:1: Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. And I would also like to note that the original Greek manuscripts that Tyndale used to translate to English, are shown to have used the Greek word "e" which (just like the word "kai") in Col. 2:16, can be translated either "and" or "or". So it would seem that regardless of which original "text" the scholars used to translate into English -- it comes down to their interpretation or understanding of the actual verse, as to whether they translate either of those Greek words to "and" or "or". So which Bible interpretation do you use that states "and" in Col. 2:16?? ... and when and who authored that version? I'm just curious here. Btw, I didn't check into the "KJV only" articles. I checked into each particular Bible to get the information. I didn't want a biased view. Thanks for encouraging me to do so. God bless. |
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31 | what is the true worship day sun. or sat | Col 2:16 | There | 25260 | ||
From what I gathered, the "Dialogue" occurred while Justin was living in Ephesus. The Jewish Rabbi was sent to him by people at Corinth, and he brought along with him other Jews to hear Justin's answers to their questions. The First Apology... didn't say anything about where he was writing from, but as I said it could have been either. Have you read the "continued" posts? Do you have an opinion concerning Justin's understanding about the Sabbath? |
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32 | what is the true worship day sun. or sat | Col 2:16 | There | 25223 | ||
Perhaps I'm missing something, but how do we now "know with a fair degree of certainty" that Paul used the word "kai"? I'm afraid I still don't understand where you got that from. :) It's late... maybe I need sleep. You said: The mss used as the base for the KJV (not a strict translation but more of an updating of previous English translations) were few in number and not representative of all that is out there today. How many English translations were there before the King James? That is what you're saying isn't it? Since the oldest manuscripts do disagree minutely, how have you decided which one is the "right" one? :) God bless you. PS I know it was Greek, LOL ... and I should have written "kai"! I sure wasn't thinking very well when I wrote that other post. :) Possibly not this one either... please bear with me though, okay? |
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33 | "Once Saved Always Saved" | NT general Archive 1 | There | 25219 | ||
I think I understand Lisa. I (we) generally ask questions and then end up discussing the differences in our particular understanding of certain biblical verses. Most of the time it makes a person think about things they may not have considered. And as for me, I believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God, so anything that adamantly disagrees with the Word is incorrect. You are right about that. And I don't think saying "but" means that we (or me in particular) aren't listening. It simply means that your understanding is not the only understanding... and someone has other considerations to add to the discussion. If I've offended you by asking for scripture to back up certain of your beliefs, I truly am sorry. |
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34 | what is the true worship day sun. or sat | Col 2:16 | There | 25217 | ||
I noticed that I had written the wrong verse number right after I "sent". :) I'm glad you corrected it. Now I'm curious. Do you know when that rabbinical "rule" was added? Any idea?? |
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35 | what is the true worship day sun. or sat | Col 2:16 | There | 25216 | ||
Final Post in series. But since you and your teachers venture to affirm that in the prophecy of Isaiah it is not said, 'Behold, the virgin shall conceive, 'but, 'Behold, the young woman shall conceive, and bear a son; 'and [since] you explain the prophecy as if [it referred] to Hezekiah, who was your king, I shall endeavor to [discuss shortly this point in opposition to you, and to show that reference is made to Him who is acknowledged by us as Christ. Chapter XLVII.-Justin Communicates with Christians Who Observe the Law. And Trypho again inquired, "But if some one, knowing that this is so, after he recognises that this man is Christ, and has believed in and obeys Him, wishes, however, to observe these [institutions], will he be saved? " I said, "In my opinion, Trypho, such an one will be saved, if he does not strive in every way to persuade other men,-I mean those Gentiles who have been circumcised from error by Christ, to observe the same things as himself, telling them that they will not be saved unless they do so. This you did yourself at the commencement of the discourse, when you declared that I would not be saved unless I observe these institutions." Then he replied, "Why then have you said, 'In my opinion, such an one will be saved, 'unless there are some144 who affirm that such will not be saved? " "There are such people, Trypho," I answered; "and these do not venture to have any intercourse with or to extend hospitality to such persons; but I do not agree with them. But if some, through weak-mindedness, wish to observe such institutions as were given by Moses, from which they expect some virtue, but which we believe were appointed by reason of the hardness of the people's hearts, along with their hope in this Christ, and [wish to perform] the eternal and natural acts of righteousness and piety, yet choose to live with the Christians and the faithful, as I said before, not inducing them either to be circumcised like themselves, or to keep the Sabbath, or to observe any other such ceremonies, then I hold that we ought to join ourselves to such, and associate with them in all things as kinsmen and brethren. But if, Trypho," I continued, "some of your race, who say they believe in this Christ, compel those Gentiles who believe in this Christ to live in all respects according to the law given by Moses, or choose not to associate so intimately with them, I in like manner do not approve of them. But I believe that even those, who have been persuaded by them to observe the legal dispensation along with their confession of God in Christ, shall probably be saved. And I hold, further, that such as have confessed and known this man to be Christ, yet who have gone back from some cause to the legal dispensation, and have denied that this man is Christ, and have repented not before death, shall by no means be saved. Further, I hold that those of the seed of Abraham who live according to the law, and do not believe in this Christ before death, shall likewise not be saved, and especially those who have anathematized and do anathematize this very Christ in the synagogues, and everything by which they might obtain salvation and escape the vengeance of fire.145 For the goodness and the loving-kindness of God, and His boundless riches, hold righteous and sinless the man who, as Ezekiel146 tells, repents of sins; and reckons sinful, unrighteous, and impious the man who fails away from piety and righteousness to unrighteousness and ungodliness. Wherefore also our Lord Jesus Christ said, 'In whatsoever things I shall take you, in these I shall judge you.'"147 THE END. Do we disregard this account of what I'd call "freedom in Christ"? God bless! |
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36 | what is the true worship day sun. or sat | Col 2:16 | There | 25215 | ||
Continued from previous post. Chapter XXX.-Christians Possess the True Righteousness. "But impute it to your own wickedness, that God even can be accused by those who have no understanding, of not having always instructed all in the same righteous statutes. For such institutions seemed to be unreasonable and unworthy of God to many men, who had not received grace to know that your nation were called to conversion and repentance of spirit,78 while they were in a sinful condition and labouring under spiritual disease; and that the prophecy which was announced subsequent to the death of Moses is everlasting. And this is mentioned in the Psalm, my friends.79 And that we, who have been made wise by them, confess that the statutes of the Lord are sweeter than honey and the honey-comb, is manifest from the fact that, though threatened with death, we do not deny His name. Moreover, it is also manifest to all, that we who believe in Him pray to be kept by Him from strange, i.e., from wicked and deceitful, spirits; as the word of prophecy, personating one of those who believe in Him, figuratively declares. For we do continually beseech God by Jesus Christ to preserve us from the demons which are hostile to the worship of God, and whom we of old time served, in order that, after our conversion by Him to God, we may be blameless. For we call Him Helper and Redeemer, the power of whose name even the demons do fear; and at this day, when they are exorcised in the name of Jesus Christ, crucified under Pontius Pilate, governor of Judaea, they are overcome. And thus it is manifest to all, that His Father has given Him so great power, by virtue of which demons are subdued to His name, and to the dispensation of His suffering. Chapter XLIII.-He Concludes that the Law Had an End in Christ, Who Was Born of the Virgin. "As, then, circumcision began with Abraham, and the Sabbath and sacrifices and offerings and feasts with Moses, and it has been proved they were enjoined on account of the hardness of your people's heart, so it was necessary, in accordance with the Father's will, that they should have an end in Him who was born of a virgin, of the family of Abraham and tribe of Judah, and of David; in Christ the Son of God, who was proclaimed as about to come to all the world, to be the everlasting law and the everlasting covenant, even as the forementioned prophecies show. And we, who have approached God through Him, have received not carnal, but spiritual circumcision, which Enoch and those like him observed. And we have received it through baptism, since we were sinners, by God's mercy; and all men may equally obtain it. But since the mystery of His birth now demands our attention I shall speak of it. Isaiah then asserted in regard to the generation of Christ, that it could not be declared by man, in words already quoted:121 'Who shall declare His generation? for His life is taken from the earth: for the transgressions of my people was He led122 to death.'123 The Spirit of prophecy thus affirmed that the generation of Him who was to die, that we sinful men might be healed by His stripes, was such as could not be declared. Furthermore, that the men who believe in Him may possess the knowledge of the manner in which He came into the world,124 the Spirit of prophecy by the same Isaiah foretold how it would happen thus: 'And the Lord spoke again to Ahaz, saying, Ask for thyself a sign from the Lord thy God, in the depth, or in the height. And Ahaz said, I will not ask, neither will I tempt the Lord. And Isaiah said, Hear then, O house of David; Is it a small thing for you to contend with men, and how do you contend with the Lord? Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign. Behold, the virgin shall conceive, and shall bear a son, and his name shall be called Immanuel. Butter and honey shall he eat, before he knows or prefers the evil, and chooses out the good;125 for before the child knows good or ill, he rejects evil126 by choosing out the good. For before the child knows how to call father or mother, he shall receive the power of Damascus and the spoil of Samaria in presence of the king of Assyria. And the land shall be forsaken,127 which thou shalt with difficulty endure in consequence of the presence of its two kings.128 But God shall bring on thee, and on thy people, and on the house of thy father, days which have not yet come upon thee since the day in which Ephraim took away from Judah the king of Assyria.'129 Now it is evident to all, that in the race of Abraham according to the flesh no one has been born of a virgin, or is said to have been born [of a virgin], save this our Christ. (This is continued in next post) |
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37 | what is the true worship day sun. or sat | Col 2:16 | There | 25214 | ||
Continued from previous post. Chapter XXVII.-Why God Taught the Same Things by the Prophets as by Moses. And Trypho said, "Why do you select and quote whatever you wish from the prophetic writings, but do not refer to those which expressly command the Sabbath to be observed? For Isaiah thus speaks: 'If thou shalt turn away thy foot from the Sabbaths, so as not to do thy pleasure on the holy day, and shalt call the Sabbaths the holy delights of thy God; if thou shalt not lift thy foot to work, and shalt not speak a word from thine own mouth; then thou shalt trust in the Lord, and He shall cause thee to go up to the good things of the land; and He shall feed thee with the inheritance of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.'"69 And I replied, "I have passed them by, my friends, not because such prophecies were contrary to me, but because you have understood, and do understand, that although God commands you by all the prophets to do the same things which He also commanded by Moses, it was on account of the hardness of your hearts, and your ingratitude towards Him, that He continually proclaims them, in order that, even in this way, if you repented, you might please Him, and neither sacrifice your children to demons, nor be partakers with thieves, nor lovers of gifts, nor hunters after revenge, nor fail in doing judgment for orphans, nor be inattentive to the justice due to the widow nor have your hands full of blood. 'For the daughters of Zion have walked with a high neck, both sporting by winking with their eyes, and sweeping along their dresses.70 For they are all gone aside, 'He exclaims, 'they are all become useless. There is none that understands, there is not so much as one. With their tongues they have practised deceit, their throat is an open sepulchre, the poison of asps is under their lips, destruction and misery are in their paths, and the way of peace they have not known.'71 So that, as in the beginning, these things were enjoined you because of your wickedness, in like manner because of your stedfastness in it, or rather your increased proneness to it, by means of the same precepts He calls you to a remembrance or knowledge of it. But you are a people hard-hearted and without understanding, both blind and lame, children in whom is no faith, as He Himself says, honouring Him only with your lips, far from Him in your hearts, teaching doctrines that are your own and not His. For, tell me, did God wish the priests to sin when they offer the sacrifices on the Sabbaths? or those to sin, who are circumcised and do circumcise on the Sabbaths; since He commands that on the eighth day-even though it happen to be a Sabbath-those who are born shall be always circumcised? or could not the infants be operated upon one day previous or one day subsequent to the Sabbath, if He knew that it is a sinful act upon the Sabbaths? Or why did He not teach those-who are called righteous and pleasing to Him, who lived before Moses and Abraham, who were not circumcised in their foreskin, and observed no Sabbaths-to keep these institutions? " Chapter XXIX.-Christ is Useless to Those Who Observe the Law. "Let us glorify God, all nations gathered together; for He has also visited us. Let us glorify Him by the King of glory, by the Lord of hosts. For He has been gracious towards the Gentiles also; and our sacrifices He esteems more grateful than yours. What need, then, have I of circumcision, who have been witnessed to by God? What need have I of that other baptism, who have been baptized with the Holy Ghost? I think that while I mention this, I would persuade even those who are possessed of scanty intelligence. For these words have neither been prepared by me, nor embellished by the art of man; but David sung them, Isaiah preached them, Zechariah proclaimed them, and Moses wrote them. Are you acquainted with them, Trypho? They are contained in your Scriptures, or rather not yours, but ours.77 For we believe them; but you, though you read them, do not catch the spirit that is in them. Be not offended at, or reproach us with, the bodily uncircumcision with which God has created us; and think it not strange that we drink hot water on the Sabbaths, since God directs the government of the universe on this day equally as on all others; and the priests, as on other days, so on this, are ordered to offer sacrifices; and there are so many righteous men who have performed none of these legal ceremonies, and yet are witnessed to by God Himself. Continued. |
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38 | what is the true worship day sun. or sat | Col 2:16 | There | 25213 | ||
Continued from previous post. These things hast thou done, and I kept silence; thou thoughtest that I would be like thyself in wickedness. I will reprove thee, and set thy sins in order before thine eyes. Now consider this, ye that forget God, lest He tear you in pieces, and there be none to deliver. The sacrifice of praise shall glorify Me; and there is the way in which I shall show him My salvation.'56 Accordingly He neither takes sacrifices from you nor commanded them at first to be offered because they are needful to Him, but because of your sins. For indeed the temple, which is called the temple in Jerusalem, He admitted to be His house or court, not as though He needed it, but in order that you, in this view of it, giving yourselves to Him, might not worship idols. And that this is so, Isaiah says: 'What house have ye built Me? saith the Lord. Heaven is My throne, and earth is My footstool.'57 Chapter XXIII.-The Opinion of the Jews Regarding the Law Does an Injury to God. "But if we do not admit this, we shall be liable to fall into foolish opinions, as if it were not the same God who existed in the times of Enoch and all the rest, who neither were circumcised after the flesh, nor observed Sabbaths, nor any other rites, seeing that Moses enjoined such observances; or that God has not wished each race of mankind continually to perform the same righteous actions: to admit which, seems to be ridiculous and absurd. Therefore we must confess that He, who is ever the same, has commanded these and such like institutions on account of sinful men, and we must declare Him to be benevolent, foreknowing, needing nothing, righteous and good. But if this be not so, tell me, sir, what you think of those matters which we are investigating." And when no one responded: "Wherefore, Trypho, I will proclaim to you, and to those who wish to become proselytes, the divine message which I heard from that man.58 Do you see that the elements are not idle, and keep no Sabbaths? Remain as you were born. For if there was no need of circumcision before Abraham, or of the observance of Sabbaths, of feasts and sacrifices, before Moses; no more need is there of them now, after that, according to the will of God, Jesus Christ the Son of God has been born without sin, of a virgin sprung from the stock of Abraham. For when Abraham himself was in uncircumcision, he was justified and blessed by reason of the faith which he reposed in God, as the Scripture tells. Moreover, the Scriptures and the facts themselves compel us to admit that He received circumcision for a sign, and not for righteousness. So that it was justly recorded concerning the people, that the soul which shall not be circumcised on the eighth day shall be cut off from his family. And, furthermore, the inability of the female sex to receive fleshly circumcision, proves that this circumcision has been given for a sign, and not for a work of righteousness. For God has given likewise to women the ability to observe all things which are righteous and virtuous; but we see that the bodily form of the male has been made different from the bodily form of the female; yet we know that neither of them is righteous or unrighteous merely for this cause, but [is considered righteous] by reason of piety and righteousness. Chapter XXIV.-The Christians' Circumcision Far More Excellent. "Now, sirs," I said, "it is possible for us to show how the eighth day possessed a certain mysterious import, which the seventh day did not possess, and which was promulgated by God through these rites. But lest I appear now to diverge to other subjects, understand what I say: the blood of that circumcision is obsolete, and we trust in the blood of salvation; there is now another covenant, and another law has gone forth from Zion. Jesus Christ circumcises all who will-as was declared above-with knives of stone;59 that they may be a righteous nation, a people keeping faith, holding to the truth, and maintaining peace. Come then with me, all who fear God, who wish to see the good of Jerusalem. Come, let us go to the light of the Lord; for He has liberated His people, the house of Jacob. Come, all nations; let us gather ourselves together at Jerusalem, no longer plagued by war for the sins of her people. 'For I was manifest to them that sought Me not; I was found of them that asked not for Me; '60 He exclaims by Isaiah: 'I said, Behold Me, unto nations which were not called by My name. I have spread out My hands all the day unto a disobedient and gainsaying people, which walked in a way that was not good, but after their own sins. It is a people that provoketh Me to my face.'61 Conintued. |
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39 | what is the true worship day sun. or sat | Col 2:16 | There | 25212 | ||
Continued from prior post. Chapter XXII.-So Also Were Sacrifices and Oblations. "And that you may learn that it was for the sins of your own nation, and for their idolatries and not because there was any necessity for such sacrifices, that they were likewise enjoined, listen to the manner in which He speaks of these by Amos, one of the twelve, saying: 'Woe unto you that desire the day of the Lord! to what end is this day of the Lord for you? It is darkness and not light, as when a man flees from the face of a lion, and a bear meets him; and he goes into his house, and leans his hands against the wall, and the serpent bites him. Shall not the day of the Lord be darkness and not light, even very dark, and no brightness in it? I have hated, I have despised your feast-days, and I will not smell in your solemn assemblies: wherefore, though ye offer Me your burnt-offerings and sacrifices, I will not accept them; neither will I regard the peace-offerings of your presence. Take thou away from Me the multitude of thy songs and psalms; I will not hear thine instruments. But let judgment be rolled down as water, and righteousness as an impassable torrent. Have ye offered unto Me victims and sacrifices in the wilderness, O house of Israel? saith the Lord. And have ye taken up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Raphan, the figures which ye made for yourselves? And I will carry you away beyond Damascus, saith the Lord, whose name is the Almighty God. Woe to them that are at ease in Zion, and trust in the mountain of Samaria: those who are named among the chiefs have plucked away the first-fruits of the nations: the house of Israel have entered for themselves. Pass all of you unto Calneh, and see; and from thence go ye unto Hamath the great, and go down thence to Gath of the strangers, the noblest of all these kingdoms, if their boundaries are greater than your boundaries. Ye who come to the evil day, who are approaching, and who hold to false Sabbaths; who lie on beds of ivory, and are at ease upon their couches; who eat the lambs out of the flock, and the sucking calves out of the midst of the herd; who applaud at the sound of the musical instruments; they reckon them as stable, and not as fleeting, who drink wine in bowls, and anoint themselves with the chief ointments, but they are not grieved for the affliction of Joseph. Wherefore now they shall be captives, among the first of the nobles who are carried away; and the house of evil-doers shall be removed, and the neighing of horses shall be taken away from Ephraim.'54 And again by Jeremiah: 'Collect your flesh, and sacrifices, and eat: for concerning neither sacrifices nor libations did I command your fathers in the day in which I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt.'55 And again by David, in the forty-ninth Psalm, He thus said: 'The God of gods, the Lord hath spoken, and called the earth, from the rising of the sun unto the going down thereof. Out of Zion is the perfection of His beauty. God, even our God, shall come openly, and shall not keep silence. Fire shall burn before Him, and it shall be very temptestuous round about Him. He shall call to the heavens above, and to the earth, that He may judge His people. Assemble to Him His saints; those that have made a covenant with Him by sacrifices. And the heavens shall declare His righteousness, for God is judge. Hear, O My people, and I will speak to thee; O Israel, and I will testify to thee, I am God, even thy God. I will not reprove thee for thy sacrifices; thy burnt-offerings are continually before me. I will take no bullocks out of thy house, nor he-goats out of thy folds: for all the beasts of the field are Mine, the herds and the oxen on the mountains. I know all the fowls of the heavens, and the beauty of the field is Mine. If I were hungry, I would not tell thee; for the world is Mine, and the fulness thereof. Will I eat the flesh of bulls, or drink the blood of goats? Offer unto God the sacrifice of praise, and pay thy vows unto the Most High, and call upon Me in the day of trouble, and I will deliver thee, and thou shalt glorify Me. But unto the wicked God saith, What hast thou to do to declare My statutes, and to take My covenant into thy mouth? But thou hast hated instruction, and cast My words behind thee. When thou sawest a thief, thou consentedst with him; and hast been partaker with the adulterer. Thy mouth has framed evil, and thy tongue has enfolded deceit. Thou sittest and speakest against thy brother; thou slanderest thine own mother's son. (Continued in next post) |
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40 | what is the true worship day sun. or sat | Col 2:16 | There | 25211 | ||
Continued from prior post. Chapter XXI.-Sabbaths Were Instituted on Account of the People's Sins, and Not for a Work of Righteousness. "Moreover, that God enjoined you to keep the Sabbath, and impose on you other precepts for a sign, as I have already said, on account of your unrighteousness, and that of your fathers,-as He declares that for the sake of the nations, lest His name be profaned among them, therefore He permitted some of you to remain alive,-these words of His can prove to you: they are narrated by Ezekiel thus: 'I am the Lord your God; walk in My statutes, and keep My judgments, and take no part in the customs of Egypt; and hallow My Sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between Me and you, that ye may know that I am the Lord your God. Notwithstanding ye rebelled against Me, and your children walked not in My statutes, neither kept My judgments to do them: which if a man do, he shall live in them. But they polluted My Sabbaths. And I said that I would pour out My fury upon them in the wilderness, to accomplish My anger upon them; yet I did it not; that My name might not be altogether profaned in the sight of the heathen. I led them out before their eyes, and I lifted up Mine hand unto them in the wilderness, that I would scatter them among the heathen, and disperse them through the countries; because they had not executed My judgments, but had despised My statutes, and polluted My Sabbaths, and their eyes were after the devices of their fathers. Wherefore I gave them also statutes which were not good, and judgments whereby they shall not live. And I shall pollute them in their own gifts, that I may destroy all that openeth the womb, when I pass through them.'53 More to follow. |
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